ADHd20 s04e04
===

Matt: [00:00:00] Show of hands. How many people today took their morning medicines and then did something else and then immediately couldn't remember whether they take,

Alison: taken their morning

Matt: I don't know. I still don't know whether I double dosed myself, so I get it.

Matt: I get it, man. I.

Alison: But don't you have one of those good little pill boxes?

Matt: I was filling the pill

Alison: Oh,

Alison: there it is.

Matt: It was my my weekly time to

Alison: Yeah, the,

Matt: box.

Alison: The, the nine months that I tried to be medicated, that really was the biggest struggle that I had. And I like immediate, but I, I couldn't just like buy like a pill box. I had to go onto Etsy and buy like a cute bespoke ones.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And it still was such a, a pill refill day was the worst 'cause it was like, did I already take it?

Alison: 'cause I refill. Oh my God. So I feel your pain.

Matt: Yep. There it is. Uh,

Alison: Well, cool.

Matt: We're not talking [00:01:00] about medication today.

Alison: bummer. Sorry.

Matt: I mean, we could look not too late, man

Alison: Listen,

Matt: Okay.

Alison: listen, I, there's a whole out outline here that I'm a whole one, like, not even just abstract thoughts, like organized thoughts. We're gonna, we're gonna do our best.

Matt: We're gonna do so good. We're gonna do, in fact, let's just bust it. There is a, I love this cold open em dash, extra credit. Pick a card. We're just gonna start this, start this show with just a, a quick tarot to set the

Alison: Okay. I already pres shuffled so that you guys don't have to listen to me shuffle and talk about light and love every time. So we're just gonna see what our theme for the day is. I've already pre promised Matthew that I'm gonna pay attention this time. Oh, um, okay. Oh, oh, oh, okay. Okay, okay. Okay. Okay. We had a, we had a flyer.

Alison: I was just about to give up and say, okay, tell me when, when one decided that she wanted [00:02:00] to come out.

Matt: Oh boy. Got a flyer,

Alison: Yeah, we got a, we had, we had a,

Matt: flyer.

Alison: We had a high flyer and the high flyer that we had is the Queen of Strength.

Matt: Ooh.

Alison: Look at her right there. She is doing some queenly things, holding up that staff with the orb, and we've got some fire. We've got a beautiful kind of gate, maybe staircase behind her that maybe she is either you know, ready to ascend or has already climbed up. Who knows? Um, strength, uh, in this suit telegraphs to wands, if we remember, which are all around, like energy, motivation, passion, solar power. What do you, what do you see as I, as I hold this darling girl up?

Matt: love that the lattice work on the staircase

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: does not match, similar to the seemingly endless [00:03:00] lattice work for her corset dress.

Alison: drawing some connections there. I love personally, my favorite part of this card. It's the fully unbothered look on her face. This is a queen who is hydrated, in her lane, rested and unbothered.

Matt: Love it. Love it. Okay,

Alison: I think that's, and so that's an interesting, okay, so that's an interesting energy to bring into today's,

Matt: topic

Alison: today's topic. Oh boy. We're gonna talk about overstimulation.

Matt: And emotional regulation

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: Yeah. And I think, I think this queen is here to remind us of what happens when you can learn. Just a little bit of, just a little bit of regulation. Just we're not, we're not asking for perfection here. Just a little bit of regulation.

Matt: never.

Alison: So I'll

Matt: just a little. Check yourself before you wreck [00:04:00] yourself. I.

Alison: yourself before you wreck yourself. Um, yes, so we're gonna kind of dive deep into that topic. There are a couple of things out in the world that have happened to and around us, uh, that is what spawned this topic. But first, just about two years ago. In season two of ADHd20, which by the way, what in the sam hill is ADHd20 Matthew,

Matt: ADHd20, uh uh, ADHd20 is a podcast that finds the intersection between ADHD.

Alison: it's not like you have it said it 51 times.

Matt: Okay. ADHd20 is a podcast that finds the intersection between ADHD and.

Alison: TTRPGs.

Matt: That's

Alison: Ooh

Matt: Uhhuh.

Alison: Uh, which we've been both [00:05:00] ADHDing and TTRPGing a lot lately. Got a little hair in your mouth there.

Matt: I did. I have a little hair in my mouth.

Alison: I hate that feeling when you're like, it's on me. Um, so we just got back from a trip to Gary Con. Yes, yes. Dear listeners. We went to both Gary Con and the Mars Cheese Castle

Matt: Had a little cheese.

Alison: My favorite. Um, well, and it's just,

Matt: you love it. Yeah.

Alison: I do, I love it so much.

Alison: I love it so much that I've made Matt pull over a second time. Because I just, I, you know, it's like potato chips can't have just one stop at the Mars Cheese Castle. Um, and so where this idea for today's topic of overstimulation kind of came from, is I vividly. So Gary Con 2023, picture it,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, March, 2023.

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: We go to kind of our first, my first nerd con. I know we've been to like other types of conferences, right?

Matt: But this was, this was like a [00:06:00] gaming convention, and I, I would,

Alison: Yep.

Matt: say that Gary Con is the,

Alison: Yep,

Matt: Gen Con. It is the Gamers gaming

Alison: yep, yep,

Matt: the, the purest of its kind. It is a true return to form.

Alison: yep.

Matt: no. No big flashy things. No. Yeah. The focus is on the games.

Alison: On the games and. We didn't know shit that year, Matt.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: We went

Matt: didn't.

Alison: and me and Fitz firing totally blind. Just like gleaning what we could from the internet and the, the, um, chaotic but good um, Gary Con Facebook group.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Um, and because I am an impulse gremlin who is really taunted and tantalized by shiny objects, I thought mistakenly the point of going to cons was to jam pack as many games as possible into a single day.

Alison: I made it my mission just to see [00:07:00] how we could like jigsaw puzzle the schedule and do all of the things. And what happened is.

Matt: hurt ourselves.

Alison: hurt ourselves. We were exhausted by like

Matt: it,

Alison: day two. Yeah. And so then it was later that year when we went to our first Gen Con that we talked to someone from the Darrington Press team actually, who said the way to con is to pick one must do a day.

Alison: And if you get two things done, you're, you know, you're killing it.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: And if you get three things done, cool, but like, don't, don't hurt yourself,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: watch it.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: But watch it. Um, so Matt and I kind of have made a fly by the seat of our pants, impulsive decision to go to Gary Con this year without much foresight or planning.

Alison: And we said we're gonna see what happens when we go and we're chill about it as, as chill as I can be. My version of chill.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. AK's chill. I think we did a great job and I, I felt [00:08:00] like I was a part of it. played three games. Two of those we had never played before, which is

Alison: Mm.

Matt: to me. We, I did get to congratulate Kelsey Dion

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: of Arcane library and Shadow Dark, uh, I got to congratulate her on the massive. Kickstarter, I think still going

Alison: Still going,

Matt: this,

Alison: yay.

Matt: up to 2 million, probably. Definitely a 1.5 million.

Alison: I haven't checked in a couple days.

Matt: It, it's, it's just so inspiring. She's so inspiring.

Matt: What else did we do? We saw a great, we got saw a great, uh, panel with The Dungeon Dudes who talked about epic heroes and how to make ba big bads even badder.

Matt: We played cyberpunk for the first time, which is important for another announcement that we have and in a second. And we played Dragon Bane, which I. I loved so[00:09:00]

Alison: Mm-hmm. Same.

Matt: a great time.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. And then we, we, we got, uh, fully sold. We bought every single thing from a company called Gooey Cube. We bought every single, every single thing, the most

Alison: Add to cart. Add to cart. Add to cart. Yep.

Matt: father of son team we've ever met.

Alison: Yep.

Matt: was delight.

Matt: So, yeah, so it was great. Not, you know, yes. Not the most in depth Gary

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: but it, it was great. Uh, the. I like to think of them as the D&D dads, honestly. And the D&D biker pack. It's

Alison: Yes.

Matt: know, it's the, you'll never see so many, uh, uh, strong portly gentlemen with bald hair and ginormous beards, leather jackets, probably even a leather vest.

Alison: Would love to see the, the Venn diagram of leather daddies and D&D players. There's a big overlap [00:10:00] there.

Matt: Dungeon daddies and dungeon daddies,

Alison: Yeah, they just, a lot of, lot of intersection there.

Alison: It felt like a little bit of a homecoming for us though. I feel like Gary Con was kind of like near the beginning of our journey of,

Matt: was.

Alison: It was actually the first time we went, we hadn't even named The Pocket Dimension.

Matt: right.

Alison: and it's just, it's always cool to go back and kind of see how like you've leveled up. Like we now know things we didn't know before. We know how to take care of ourselves better.

Alison: But yeah, we've been talking about leveling up.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: season two, and I feel like we were kind of coming into our own Con Mastery with Gary Con this year.

Matt: well said. Which, and the perfect segue of course, 'cause you planned it this way to when we got back, uh, we had arranged a meeting with Envoy, which is sort of a

Alison: Th third party game, master supplier to the stars. I don't know. Let's put a marketing spin on it. Let's make it sound as sexy as possible.

Matt: really either, but it really, it really did, it really did remind me of, of

Alison: Yeah,[00:11:00]

Matt: my first New York City apartment.

Alison: yeah, yeah.

Matt: There

Alison: You gotta get herded in. Yep.

Matt: herded in. There are slots. It's really first come, first serve.

Matt: And they, their job is, they get slot times, they find out what, what the publishers want to run.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: down to the, the adventure, the module. So we're not gonna have

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah. And then they just find people to fill, get those seats. The GMs, the forever GMs that are just walking around. And it has been my dream, my personal dream, to be a game master at a con, ever since Gary Con. So,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: uh, our, our new friend Vincent from Envoy is making

Alison: Our bookie's name is Vinny. Of course. Of course it is.

Matt: Vinny, uh, I, I think I, I'm just gonna pretend that my New York booking, uh, bookie was also named Vinny and he

Alison: was,

Matt: wings. I.

Alison: yeah. Oh,

Matt: that for a fact he

Alison: [00:12:00] oh,

Matt: wings. Yeah, he wore angel wings every time we had a meeting with him.

Alison: interesting.

Matt: yeah, Vinny was like, okay. 'cause Alison really wanted to game master dagger heart, which I completely understand.

Matt: I did too. But he said, we have one slot. And he was like, he said it the way it in a way that he was afraid he was going to destroy our relationship,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: uh, no, it, it needed to go to you. And so I get to, I get to run games in Cyberpunk Red, the Witcher, and so many other ones from R. Talsorian games, and I'm beyond excited about it.

Alison: Yep. So we'll each be running five sessions,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: uh, at GenCon this year. We'll have some, we'll have game master badges. We're big time.

Matt: master badges.

Alison: It'll be interesting approaching this as GMs with ADHD,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: to make our tables inclusive and friendly. The thing about these cons to know if you've never been to one is that they're not for the faint of heart and they are not for the easily distracted. [00:13:00] Uh, they are not for the impulse gremlins.

Alison: Um, and so it's an uphill climb because you're literally in a big room, uh, with anywhere from say, five to 10 to a convention hall, expo, hall's worth of tables of other people talking loudly. And you know what happens? You get a little boisterous and loud when you're playing these games, especially in the big moments.

Alison: And so there's both the sound to compete with and just make sure that you can kind of stay locked and loaded in your table. But then there's, you know, just like all of the distractions of like people moving and standing and explain, claiming and going on break and coming back from break and all of these different things.

Alison: And. As a game master, you're trying to kind of shunt your players through a great experience, making sure that they get a satisfying ending in three to four hours time.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: How will we do?

Matt: Yeah, it's gonna be a very different experience,

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: to that point, I immediately called up my, my pal Nathan. I call him the hardware guy. Nate and I started brainstorming [00:14:00] about the next iteration of, of a assisted listening device. But this time it'll be. Just from the game master side, and we will have a bunch of headphones to help with some of that distraction.

Matt: And it's gonna be so freaking great. I

Alison: Yep.

Matt: wait. I am very excited to be given the opportunity.

Alison: Yeah. We're super excited

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. So excited. Big, big next step. So yeah, if you're listening to this and you're going to Gen Con, please try to get, my name is Matthew Bivins, and this is Alison Kendrick. So just look for our tables,

Alison: don't have fun.

Matt: right.

Alison: then our names are Fiona Fancy Pants.

Matt: And MacGyver McCraken.

Alison: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So great. Well, we'll see y'all there. So I love that each of our topics are like building onto each other

Matt: Keep going. Game. Don't stop. Pop the top. Stop.

Alison: up and mastery and then like the big thing that happened. Okay. So one of the reasons that I love taking long car rides,

Matt: Mm

Alison: with me here friends

Matt: will.

Alison: at our first Gary Con, Matt and Fitz. I'm

Matt: Oh, oh, oh,

Alison: myself. Does it work now? Matt and Fitz, Matt and Fitz. Uh, perfect. Nailed

Matt: yeah.

Alison: it. [00:01:00] Um, said, Alison, we know you're not a podcast girly, but you, well, you guys would never say girly, but you know what I mean. Um, said you have to listen to Worlds Beyond Number

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: Brennan Lee Mulligan, Aabria Iyengar, Lou Wilson, and Erika Ishii

Matt: yeah.

Alison: And I started listening, and I am proud to say two years later, I'm finally caught up.

Matt: You, you, you're beyond number of me. You're beyond me.

Alison: AK beyond Matt.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: it's so good. In fact, I've started recommending my friends who are really into like the fantasy bend with all of the things like Court of Thorn and Roses and um, Empyrean series. Like if you're into audiobooks, just listen to this and pretend it's an

Matt: Mm. So good. I.

Alison: the story is just one of the most compelling things I've ever heard. So. A 12 hour drive from Charlotte to Chicago, uh, was like, I'm gonna listen to so much of this podcast, so I'm listening, um, in where are we? I think it's the third season. And I mean, Brennan's GM ing and then Aabria and [00:02:00] Lou and Erika's playing is just on another level.

Matt: Hmm.

Alison: And without spoiling anything, something happened. Lots of things are happening. Um, it's a very crazy time on Worlds Beyond Number. That the characters are taking very, very personally, that are really, really affecting them to their core and just shaking with the world as they know it. And so Aabria on the show had her character, when they got to a stopping point the world felt that it was just closing and around her character, in character, she said, you know, she walks off to a quiet space and finds a place where she's not being bothered. She, uh, plays a wizard. So she conjures up an hourglass with one minute's worth of sand inside, and she's beautifully describing all of this. And then she says, in character, I'm gonna give myself one minute. I'm gonna give myself one minute to feel every emotion on the deepest rawest level that I possibly can. And when [00:03:00] this minute is up, I, I have to carry on. I have to move on with my day. And I just loved that level of self care. I don't even know what to begin to call of compartmentalizing,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: recognizing the danger in reaching overstimulation

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: calling for that timeout that we have talked about so many times before on this show.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And I've done that in some capacity. When I have, you know, bad things happen to me, I'll say, okay, I'm in a like. I'm gonna feel bad for this weekend, and then on Monday morning I have to get up and carry on with my

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: it made me wonder and wish, like what a different person I could be if I could learn to rely on that tactic.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: More fully. So on the way to Gary Con, one morning I told Matt about having just listened to this, I was like, we gotta, we gotta talk about this

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: on ADHd20. Just kind of like the dangers of overstimulation and then the like emotional practices, self-regulation tools that we have, you know, begun to [00:04:00] build up out in our toolkit.

Matt: Right.

Alison: then.

Matt: And then.

Alison: in mainstream media last week, I was scrolling through TikTok and I am not a survivor watcher. I do like some reality tv, but I've just never felt the, the sirens call to watch any of the 8,200 seasons of Survivor.

Matt: They're not naked enough.

Alison: They're just

Matt: They're not afraid enough. Yeah.

Alison: not afraid enough.

Alison: Right. Um, no shade to it. The, for the, this is not me. I'm not yucking anybody's yum. If you love Survivor, I love this for you.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: Um.

Matt: it. I like it, by the way. Yeah.

Alison: and I love watching people's like commentary of it and how like deep into the Survivor lore people get. So like, if this is something that you are, include yourself in this fandom.

Alison: I, I love this and

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: this will be my turning point, but anyways, I was scrolling through TikTok and I am immediately on my TikTok for you page greeted with this video of a very, very young woman.

Alison: Looks like late teens, early twenties, completing a challenge on [00:05:00] Survivor, and then. What, from an outsider's perspective, looked like a panic attack. Um, there was gasping for breath. There was just kind of like a

Matt: Sobbing.

Alison: yell,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: you know, and all of these different things. But as I'm watching, I'm like, that's not.

Alison: That's not a panic attack. And I didn't know what it was, but like I knew like that's not, that's not what that is. And then as I continued to watch it, what transpired is you see her complete this challenge and you get the sense that like she has really overcome some kind of obstacle to win this challenge.

Alison: And it's about mental fortitude and like less about physical.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: her entire team collapse around her and begin like shaking her and applauding her, and you got this. You're so great. And like all of these different things. And the more they're doing that, the more she is like heaving to catch her breath and shaking and become visibly like unmoored.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: and as you're watching this, you see this kind of visual exchange go down between the host, Jeff Propst, that's his name, right? And I think [00:06:00] it is,

Matt: I think so.

Alison: and one of the players named Joe, and you're watching them watch each other and then watch her. And without context, it's like, are they judging her for having this big, what looked like an emotional outburst to any passerby? And then Jeff says to Joe, Joe, do you want to go hug her? You watch him walk her out of this episode absolutely beautifully.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And then Jeff kind of says, okay. Something obviously just happened and like, let's clarify it. Um, and what I learned by watching this clip is that she is, was diagnosed as a baby with autism, was told by doctors, her parents were told that she would probably never lead a normal life. You know, she, her, her best hope could be to marry somebody else with autism. like that's a punishment, you know, like

Matt: Yeah, exactly. That's so weird. Yeah.

Alison: yeah, she, you know, overcame all the odds and became verbal and, you know, was mainstreamed into [00:07:00] high school, I believe, as she put it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: but when she first got to the island and was initially in a tribe with Joe, he's a firefighter and a dad, so I guess she felt comfortable confiding in him and letting him know about her autism diagnosis and what happens when she has these episodes, when she gets overstimulated. Um, and so he recognized that was what was happening, was basically trying to like talk her down with his eyes and then like physically had to, to comfort her. Um, and her whole thing was just lovely around, like, she didn't want to be the girl with autism, right?

Alison: She wanted, she didn't, that's why she didn't choose to disclose that to her teammates and to everybody when she first arrived because

Matt: Right.

Alison: didn't want that to be her whole personality,

Matt: Sure.

Alison: put it.

Matt: Which, which to be fair in different seasons, Survivor would have pegged her that, and that would've been her, her tear filled story to the camera every single time. So, I get it. I get it. Yeah.

Matt: Everybody talks to a camera and it, I, like you said, it's not, there's no shame. She doesn't have [00:08:00] shame. It's not, uh, it's not that she's trying to escape the fact that she has autism, but just she.

Matt: She felt that there were other things that she wanted to talk about as well, so yeah, be known for. Mm-hmm.

Alison: So it was just, it was interesting. I, you know, then got kind of lost in the comments and it was interesting to watch the number of people who just didn't understand at a fundamental level what was even happening. As I mentioned, people were labeling it a panic attack. People were, you know, casting judgment on her reaction. And that I definitely clocked because I am, you know, often told that my reaction is out of sync to the reality of things sometimes, that I might have a bigger reaction than the situation might call for. Um. I, I, while I don't have, I don't think I have episodes in the way that she does, I definitely understand very fully the feeling of feeling overstimulated and like, how do you. How do you back out of this? Especially because when most people, and they do it out of love, like nobody that [00:09:00] was like gathering around her and asking her to breathe and congratulating her and telling her how wonderful she is, had an ounce of malice

Matt: No.

Alison: approach. They thought, oh gosh, you know, she's just, you know, feeling a lot of feelings and let's assure you know, they were, they thought they were doing the right things

Matt: Yeah. Right?

Alison: Um, but once. Once you reach that point of overstimulation there, like it does become dire,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: become when surrounded by those who don't know how to handle it, like to walk yourself back. Um, and so I just thought these two kind of big things like the, these two big media things that I consumed in the last week would make for a cool topic because I did identify with it so much.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Um. And thought it could just be like a cool way for us to talk through. Like what are the ways that we can set that hourglass? What are

Matt: Right.

Alison: we can find the safe person to tell our story to and make sure we're gonna be okay? If there's an episode, like [00:10:00] what

Matt: Right?

Alison: like? Both around a gaming table as we've already kind of started to talk about,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: uh, but then also just like in real life, like what?

Alison: Finding that that coping mechanism and that safe space looks like.

Matt: I love it. I love it. And I will start off by saying that. Neither of us are diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum. I, I feel like that, that's probably a, a good thing to say. We have been diagnosed with ADHD.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: obviously we've been talking about it for four years, but

Matt: The more that we learn, the more people that we meet.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: Thanks to this show. You know, the more questions come up and the more like Hmm, hmm. You know, it's a feeling noticing things and I love this.

Alison: Yeah. I recently an influencer that I've been following for the better part of 10 years. Um, that I am both very alike and also nothing

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: uh, she was a contestant on Bachelor, kind of started Charlotte's major like [00:11:00] pop culture news source. Sold that off to Axios. So now she's moved to California. She's a vegan,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: which is not my normal energy, but she is a cancer.

Alison: So I do identify with her there. Um, and she was recently talking through her autism diagnosis and like was talking through all the questions she had that led her to gaining that diagnosis. And every single one of 'em, I was like, oh. Oh,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: it, and it really is that feeling of becoming unmoored that like, without a semblance of a plan and an understanding of like what the next steps are.

Alison: Like my brain melts

Matt: Right, right.

Alison: fade on outta here.

Matt: Yeah. You know, it, it, this, you know, they don't know enough people, they, meaning doctors, scientists, they don't know enough right now that they'll admit it, that they don't know enough about the brain to be able to say, as I've said many times, I feel like there's going to be some manner of better

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: classification.

Matt: In our lifetime that will help us. [00:12:00] Yeah. You know, because I think they're, they're finding ADHD is, could be autism, it could be all these different things. Do you want to touch on TTRPGs as emotional practice slash self-regulation tools and why games are so good for neurodivergent brains, which actually is a cool twist to something that we've said.

Matt: It's like, how can you be more, inclusive of neurodivergent brains, but. Also your, but your statement is why games are good for our brains and why there are so many people, admit to having a, a neuro divergent brain and play this game.

Matt: Little did we know that finding the intersection between ADH- was we thought, oh no. How could that, they're so different. How could they? No. It really is like Reese's. It really, there, there are some amazing reasons why we would be drawn and it would be so passion filled for us.

Matt: Structure and rules. Is [00:13:00] inherent in the game. Right? Uh, you can see behind me if you're watching this, I have an enormous, beautiful new physical library of structure, of tool, of rules, sorry, of rules and 10 times more that as in PDF form on my computer. I'll never probably get to all of them, but it is, it, it is a rule.

Matt: It is a rule heavy thing.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: I think you can take or leave that as much as you want. You know, of course you can be a rules lawyer if you need that, and then you can let some go. But the structure too. The structure. Tell, tell. What were you thinking when you put down the structure?

Alison: This is gonna sound real, real goofy, but we've already established that we're beyond that this year. Um, I think for me it comes down to like emotional safety and finding that safe space to explore, as you've [00:14:00] mentioned correctly so many, many, many times. There's just so much of the human brain of our own, especially that is so like unmapped.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And I think I spent a lot of time again being told as a child that like my emotional outbursts were too much, over the top

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: didn't match, you know, like all the things. And so I think when we talk about the structure of TTRPGs, it automatically gives it like a safe space to look at what that means.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: it's like in the episodes where I talked about, like it wasn't until Alison, as a player playing a character named Chimerical understood what rejection sensitive dysphoria Mm-hmm. that that became a really

Matt: I see.

Alison: space because of the structure of the game.

Matt: Mm.

Alison: I was safe. I right.

Matt: Yep.

Alison: When you're playing these games, at the end of the day, like even though we all do, I think a great job of being in the moment and willingly suspending our disbelief and connecting as characters and things like that, as we've also mentioned before, you bring a little bit of yourself into them.[00:15:00]

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Alison: I was able to explore and kind of push on the boundaries of that. Like, why am I feeling that way? Why am I suddenly feeling rejected when nobody rejected me? Nobody said anything mean to me.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: At worst, I got a neutral reaction from people. Why am I taking that? So personally?

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: and I think it's 'cause I knew I was in a structure, I was Alison in a game with people who love her, right?

Alison: And so when I'm just like Alison out in the wild. Exploring my own neurodivergence

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Like that's not a safe space to explore that all the time. I can get lost. Do you remember the, um, the movie from the nineties, Robin Williams? What Dreams May Come?

Matt: Yes, I do. I do remember that movie. I feel like I was one of two people that saw it. And now you're the other one.

Alison: that.

Matt: I loved it.

Alison: I'm the other one. Hi.

Matt: Hi.

Alison: I, I mean, I was in high school when that movie was released, and I remember watching that movie and feeling like, this is way too big for me to understand [00:16:00] like this, know, like I shouldn't be feel, but I also remember it, like it unlocked something in me, you know,

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: Um, and just that kind of like falling through different levels of like her mind and what hell must be like and

Matt: yeah.

Alison: and all these different

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: And it, I re you know, that that's the danger of it, right? Like, we could go in here and we could not come back out the same.

Matt: Right.

Alison: but you put the structure of a t TTRPG TTRPG on it suddenly it does become little bit more of a sandbox to explore.

Matt: I can take all of these things that I consider hard, that Matt considers horrible, and I can put them in a game where, like you said, it's a safe space.

Matt: It's a sandbox that you can play with and you can, you can experiment, you can, you can punish, you can um, fight, you can [00:17:00] communicate with these things that are really hard for you.

Alison: I mean maybe also just from like a very basic level, like I think. Even though I know I need structure, right?

Matt: mm-hmm.

Alison: that, that tends to be my problem a lot of times is that like when I, I'm at my worst when I'm kind of like free falling. And if I just put like a little

Matt: Hmm.

Alison: structure, but like for me, obviously the lack of executive function, the like, you know, the need to be spontaneous and impulsive.

Alison: Like these are just two bulls fighting inside of me at all times. And maybe there's just something to, like, there is structure, but it's a game.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: Like I've, I've even gamified the structure, right?

Matt: Oh,

Alison: fun,

Matt: oh, yeah. Well, that make, yeah, so the, the structure is the game, but then within the game you can be as dysfunctional executively as you need to be. I love, I never thought of that. Yeah, it's totally true,

Alison: yeah, 'cause it was weird for me too, writing the words like structure and rules.

Alison: 'cause I

Matt: right?

Alison: that I like as a person, when you think, Alison, you think structure and [00:18:00] rules. I need a plan.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: need a structure.

Matt: Right.

Alison: And I

Matt: It's

Alison: things are different in my brain. I'm just now realizing,

Matt: sure. Uh, I also like you, you put down, I. Turns and pacing. So that's time, uh, relationship with time, which is tough.

Alison: It's relationship with time and like. I think it also goes back to RSD, like everything for me goes back to RSD these

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: am I being enough? Am I being not enough? Like I'm constantly feeling like I'm not giving enough or I'm being too much. And like this is the, the inner monologue I constantly have.

Alison: And when there's a turn, I take an action, I take a movement, I take a bonus action, I'm done. It's neither not enough, nor is it too much

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: and again, there's that like structure serving me.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Um, in an emotionally healthy and balanced way. And then to your point, within that turn, I can do whatever the hell I want.

Alison: I

Matt: Right.

Alison: as feral as I [00:19:00] want to be, but I implicitly understand when the end of my turn is

Matt: Right, right.

Alison: now somebody else is gonna take their turn. So.

Matt: And let's say that in your turn, in your feral state you did or said something that might offend. A fellow player

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: never have. But what if you did? Uh, another thing we love about TTRPGs, especially since 2020, I don't know, but it really became a thing. But safety tools

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: are now mechanized in, in a great way, emotional guardrails, lots of, you know, ways to very calmly and politely say, Ooh, that's too far.

Matt: I can't talk about that. I can't. I can't do that. So that's always, that's something pure. We definitely use that in real life. I definitely, you, you have definitely ex [00:20:00] carded me for a couple of, uh, particularly vomit, atrocious things. I can ex card about blood

Alison: yeah.

Matt: gum.

Alison: Smacking gum in your ears

Matt: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Alison: And

Matt: X.

Alison: we, but what's cool is like, I, you know, there have been times where like, I have, with this group, but like it in the past, in my life where I have said something that bothers me, said a fear. There's always that of that fear that when you tell somebody your fear, they're then going to use that against

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: I and I, not just a fear, like I've literally had that happen. I've told people about fears and they think it's funny to then taunt me with that very thing just to get a reaction. 'cause

Matt: Right.

Alison: know I react big. Like if you want a big reaction to something, just come over here. It's fine.

Matt: It can be entertaining,

Alison: but there have been a couple times in our friend group where like in real life somebody has said something and not realizing the death, like not to goad me on at all.

Matt: right?

Alison: all I've [00:21:00] had to say to that friend that I now play D&D with is, Hey, X Card. And they're like, oh God, okay. Yeah,

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: change the subject now.

Matt: it's nice.

Alison: It

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: if only everybody could be trained in the X card

Matt: I know.

Alison: it's the quickest way to say, I'm serious about this. I don't prefer this subject. I. And their feelings aren't hurt.

Matt: Right.

Alison: have to keep talking about the thing that makes me upset.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: it really does work beautifully both

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: table.

Matt: that's true.

Alison: it out. If you're, if you're listening to this and you're one of our ffr, uh, sweet audience members that has never played a TTRPG before. And there's something that comes up in your real life and that you can set a a, like what I call an upfront contract with someone that, like when I say the words X card, that means we just move on from that subject and we don't talk about it anymore.

Alison: We don't bring it up again. We don't belabor the point and ask why

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: Got it. And we move on, try it,

Matt: it's a safe word.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: And I added one more to your list and, and this is for Game Masters, at least for me. Um, it, it touches, [00:22:00] touches a little bit to earlier episodes where we're, where we're looking for providing inclusivity to your table. But what I have realized is that diplomacy

Alison: Mm.

Matt: is not an inherent trait.

Matt: The, the ability to.

Alison: Mm.

Matt: To shoot for diplomacy, to shoot for a compromise, a middle ground, a happy place for all

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: not everybody's thing. So,

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: and I, I don't know that it was as much my thing when I first started this journey

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: as it is now.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I have noticed recently that, I not only am taking something in my life that has always [00:23:00] been important to me, the ability to listen, the ability to care about other people, to be empathetic, but also that I enjoy it.

Matt: I enjoy finding the common grounds. To a point, to a point, you know, uh, I don't know that I'm gonna win any awards for being a diplomat or anything, but just, you know, finding common grounds and, and, and allowing, and being very, very aware of who is not speaking, who is not engaged. Not making them feel bad about it, but saying, Hey, you're up if you want.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And, and similarly, to be able to say to people who are stronger personalities. Hey, let's give this person a, a try. I'm not,

Alison: Yeah,

Matt: genuinely not looking at you. I'm

Alison: I know.

Matt: No, not at all. No, but, but it has happened.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: I've been game mastering with, with people in the last couple of years that, that has, that I [00:24:00] don't fault them for being

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: super engaged.

Matt: I love that. However, there does have to be, if you are neurodivergent, especially that it does have to sometimes be a moderator and important things. So stepping up to that is, is a good lesson to learn for me.

Alison: I will say yes to all of that. I would love to give you an award for diplomacy.

Matt: Oh,

Alison: you win many awards for that in my book,

Matt: does it come with a Starbucks card?

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: I

Alison: card and a

Matt: dunno why I said that. Yeah.

Alison: Ooh,

Matt: Yes.

Alison: Ooh, that would be cute to start like mailing cards with tarot. Anyways,

Matt: Oh.

Alison: um, as you were talking about that though, it made me think, it, it, like part of me wonders, and this is where like the conversation for me started, right?

Alison: That the awareness that Aabria had in that example that I shared at the beginning of this to say, this is messing me up. I am overstimulated. I can no longer function. I have to step [00:25:00] away and allow myself the chance to feel all of these things deeply.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And then I'm gonna put a time limit on it and, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna force myself to feel, because that's the thing, I think a lot of times we all love to just to tell ourselves like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.

Alison: We just bury it. We should push

Matt: Yep.

Alison: And this is like the, don't bury it, like let it out, but don't let it fester and don't let it consume

Matt: Yep.

Alison: that. That technique, that tactic, whatever, right? So we have that going on. And so like suddenly the glass shatter moment for me was like the awareness of like, that's a great way to handle that. So now I

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: remember that the next time I need it, the next time I need to pull something like that outta my toolkit of like. Take yourself outta the situation. Give yourself one minute, 10 minutes, whatever it is, feel it. Force yourself to feel it deeply, however much it hurts.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: way that you're gonna be able to grow is to figure out how to release that feeling from your body.

Matt: Right,

Alison: And then, you know, okay, I, I, at the end of this time, it doesn't mean that it, it no longer affects me. I can set [00:26:00] another timer later.

Matt: right.

Alison: know, like, I can come back to this if I need to, but you know, for the next hour I have to get motivated on the task at hand. The parallel that I can now draw to this is the difference between D&D and Daggerheart when we talk about that awareness piece, right?

Alison: I.

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: Because I've already given, you know, very D&D verbiage in this conversation here about like, action bonus action movement

Matt: I, I was gonna ask you, but what about Daggerheart?

Alison: about

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: So with Daggerheart, for those of you not familiar, um, first came out the big like news item that before people even got to play it, myself included, w just glommed onto is the fact that Daggerheart is at its core an initiativeless system. And this is a system that has been built to give players the opportunity to interact and work together. 'Cause that's something that many people feel is missing from games like D&D, where it's like, I can hold my action until after Matt takes his turn.

Alison: But what if I wanna do this cool combo move with Matt and D&D just doesn't naturally give us the [00:27:00] ability to do that. And that.

Matt: Right.

Alison: So when Daggerheart first came out and it was like initiative list system, everybody was kind of like up in arms of like, how is that gonna work? There's always gonna be that one asshole at the table who's gonna, like, I do this and then I do this, and then I do this and I've killed everybody.

Alison: Before you took a swing.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison: That has not happened. WA and as Matt and I have mentioned many, many, many times on this podcast, we are so lucky to be in community with some of the coolest people, and we do credit those super cool people with being the reason that it's never been a problem. But for me it's an awareness thing because of when I am playing Daggerheart, I am aware like a hyper fixation level, they'll

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: I gotta share the space. I gotta share the space. I gotta share the space. I can't, I can't do

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: things at once. I gotta take a turn and then I gotta let my buddy Fitz act and after Fitz we'll see what Evan wants to do. And like we're aware of it though, and we

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: in that way. Whereas like when we're playing D&D, I don't have to be aware of it.

Alison: 'cause I know I'm gonna roll a D 20 and tell you a number and [00:28:00] then you're gonna put me into order based on that.

Matt: Right.

Alison: That's the thing is it's like it like, and, and now I'm, I'm bringing this full circle. So we have a, a really cool group of patrons that we've started a new campaign with and we went back and forth for a minute on, do we like to Daggerheart or D&D more for this campaign? And we ultimately landed in, let's go D&D for this, which was the right answer by the way. And I'm really

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: it,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: sessions that we've had. But there, there were, there's this element where we're still trying to like play around with it.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And now I'm, I'm having this self-awareness moment live on the camera in front of y'all as we

Matt: Okay,

Alison: the way,

Matt: great.

Alison: thoughts I had ahead of time, like. We're experimenting 'cause we wanna find the fun, right?

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: owe it to ourselves to like make this the most fun game that we can. And that means breaking rules where we want to. But some of the feedback that I had given Matt was like, Hmm, this didn't work when we kind of tried an initiativeless initiative system.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: And now I'm realizing why, because I can't be both aware and unaware. I like, I [00:29:00] need. That's when I become overstimulated and then I don't know what to do.

Matt: Mm.

Alison: if it's my turn or not. So I either need to be in a fully initiativeless system so I can balance myself in that awareness, or I need to rely on the initiative to tell me when to go and what to do.

Alison: Otherwise, I just become an

Matt: Interesting.

Alison: overstimulated goblin

Matt: I get it. Wow.

Alison: I didn't realize why it didn't work for me until this very conversation. We worked it out here.

Matt: I love it. What then in game, what does it look, what does overstimulation look like then?

Alison: And I think we've, we've especially touched on this, this year. Kind of knowing if you're a fight or flight person.

Matt: Mm.

Alison: For me, overstimulation looks like neither of those things. I'm a freeze.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: Miss Freezy.

Alison: That inability to make a choice.

Alison: When you hear me argue with myself, I think maybe that's the tell.

Matt: Hmm.

Alison: Yeah, the No. I, uh, the more of that we get,

Matt: Ah, interesting, interesting.

Alison: the more overstimulated I am.

Matt: [00:30:00] Uh. Let me think. Mine, mine is definitely your second point, which is social exhaustion and sensory overwhelm. And I, I am a shut, shut down. Shut down, Sally. That's what I am. And yes, I will.

Alison: Sally. That'll bop.

Matt: That old, that old banger, uh

Alison: Sorry.

Matt: oh. No, not again. Uh.

Alison: Bless.

Matt: Yeah, I, I shut down. I am, I tend to be a go-go, go until I hit a limit and then go, whew, okay, back away. Let's, ugh, ugh. You know? yeah, I Have some physical tells too. I have dry mouth. I have dry palms. Uh, yeah, I have, I have some of those as well.

Alison: Yeah. When you do the sweater [00:31:00] tuck, rock,

Matt: Yeah,

Matt: Though. I do, I do rock pretty much all the time, whether I know it or not, or.

Alison: So for you it's the sweater tuck, like, 'cause you do this, like, let me

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison: is when I start playing with my sleeves,

Matt: Ah,

Alison: like just,

Matt: yes.

Alison: part of my body can be exposed. All of a sudden, if like the hood goes up,

Matt: Yep. Yeah,

Alison: like that.

Matt: right. Well, okay. And so my therapist, I. A fantastic gentleman named Jeff. He, he is trying very hard for, to get me to realize these tells. And the reason that he is, is that he says that the brain is going, going, going, going, going. The first reaction to the brain,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: definitely not the mouth.

Matt: Definitely not other feelings. Is going to be the body.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: if something, if, if something, something raw hits you,

Alison: Mm-hmm.[00:32:00]

Matt: chances are you're going to have a physical reaction to it before you even realize you're getting in there. So he wants to find the place where I can get, be aware of it sooner even than shut down or, or others.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Work in progress.

Alison: Work in progress.

Matt: I keep you posted.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: What does hyper fixation traps mean?

Alison: I think both within the lens of TTRPGs. And then also like IRL When we're talking about this like overstimulation, it's just like all of a sudden everything like narrows down to this tunnel vision and you begin to tell yourself, if I can just fix this one thing,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: gonna be okay. Right?

Matt: Mm.

Alison: like.

Matt: Okay. Right.

Alison: matters all of a sudden, because

Matt: That's what you mean. Yeah.

Alison: And it's a control thing, I think, right? Like if I can just control this one, if I can just make this one little thing, do what I [00:33:00] need or want it to do,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: else is gonna be okay. Everything else is gonna fall into place.

Alison: But we've talked many, many times about we do not have

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Alison: human life. We have the illusion of control.

Matt: Right, right.

Alison: give that away and say, me, I don't have any control. Um, I think that hyper fixation, for me at least, and I don't speak for everybody I'd be interested in I think you and I hyper fixate even differently.

Alison: Right.

Matt: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alison: me, I think my hyper fixation probably stems from a control issue. It's me trying to control that one little thing, and that's why it gets all my focus the way that it does.

Alison: What are, what are, what are your thoughts on

Matt: Hyperfixation traps?

Alison: I.

Matt: Yeah. I mean, I don't know that mine is completionist the way that yours is. For me, it is so tied into the frustration of knowing that there's a billion different ways to get to the same

Alison: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Matt: And so I get real stuck because I'm constantly trying to [00:34:00] find the most efficient way,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: uh, A to B and sometimes that's not the way that it's, that's, that is not what I should be doing, uh, the efficient way.

Matt: Sure, that's great. But unless it does, unless it comes easily, I'm just purely wasting time. And

Alison: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: I think that's what it is for me because I, I'm just trying to hack.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I'm just trying to hack everything and, and make it. I I, I'm very, very, it probably there is probably is some RSD because I'm, I'm very, very concerned about the next developer that might be looking at the code that I've written and, and I want it to be clear as, as a bell for them, you know.

Matt: Do I ever accomplish that? No. No,

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: not really.

Alison: Here's what I know. A few years ago, I lived in a place that had terrible internet and I rented it. [00:35:00] It's important to know and about ev like clockwork. About every two months my internet died. Spectrum would send somebody out. They're all independent contractors. One guy would come out. I don't know what the last guy did, but he just really. Beeped it up. Don't worry, I fixed it for you.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: Two months later, breaks again. Next guy comes. I don't know what the last guy

Matt: Yep.

Alison: but he and this like, and

Matt: Yes.

Alison: I, I would tell this suspect, I'm like, every single one thinks the one before messed it up and

Matt: Yep.

Alison: assures me that they've fixed it for the final time.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: here like trying so hard to fix it for the next guy while beeping it up. And that is the meaning of life

Matt: Oh my God. I...do w e even need to finish the podcast. That's that is. That is as beautifully put as I've ever heard it. Oh my God. The guy for the gas company came out a couple of, like last month and did that exact thing. The guy that just repaired, just completely [00:36:00] renovated our bathroom in a most beautiful way.

Matt: Okay? Here's the funny thing. He's probably the guy and he was mad at the guy that did the work. He doesn't remember. He doesn't remember that. He is the one who effed it up.

Alison: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: at himself. It passed him like, you know, 20 years ago, but still.

Alison: yep.

Matt: Oh, it's funny. Oh, it's funny.

Alison: Yeah. So I. Yeah, that, that's what I have to say about that. So, you know, as we kind of like wrap this up,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: question that I asked was how we recognize and recover.

Matt: Mm.

Alison: And I think for me, like I said, it comes like, I have to know when I'm playing Daggerheart that it's a shared, you know, initiative and it's a dance between the fear tokens and

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: you know, because I have that awareness. Just today there was a, a comment that came in on one of our videos that didn't sit well with me and like my normal gremlin behavior would be like they, and get mad about it. And I was like. What if I just asked Matt about it and I did

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: [00:37:00] of just like, so just like recognizing that awareness that like I know as the impulsive type, my knee jerk reaction is always to like jump on things immediately

Matt: Right.

Alison: like, if something's actually and actively on fire, yes, put that out.

Alison: But like, not a firefighter, so like

Matt: Right.

Alison: of a hundred, whatever I'm dealing with is not on fire.

Matt: Yeah. Right.

Alison: So I think that's for me it like, know, back to the whole both learning what our metaphorical, you know, hour glasses look like and saying, I'm gonna give myself this space and time to feel this deeply. Then like, knowing who might have put it in survivor terms, alliances are with

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: like, who's my safe space, who can I go to and say, can you look at this with me?

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Um. It's back. I think every, every single episode is just gonna come back to pairing and body doubling. Matt,

Matt: Well that's okay because I, I, I still don't think people understand it, how [00:38:00] important it is to us and how. Yeah. I mean, I don't even, I forget, like I, I,

Alison: understand.

Matt: exactly. I was like, I can burn through this. I can bash my head against the wall.

Alison: You and I still sit in agony over things

Matt: Yeah. Right,

Alison: Knowing full well, all we would have to do is call each other

Matt: right.

Alison: else, and say, will you pair with me while I

Matt: A hundred percent.

Alison: task?

Matt: yes, yes. That's okay.

Alison: learn?

Matt: So you, but you are recognizing more, you are recovering more.

Matt: I am. I am definitely, uh, recognizing more myself, uh, the, the cause of, of this, and. Again, some, many of the episodes of ADHd20 a podcast finds the intersection between ADHD and TTRPGs. is live, working that out in front of you.

Alison: Yeah.[00:39:00]

Matt: You know, the notion episode, the, the fiddling episode was a major one for me, and it, it.

Matt: To go, whoa, I had no idea. I just had no idea. Everybody else does. That's okay. That's not their responsibility. But now, now when I get all, uh, fit fussy, fitsy fussy, I either, I either let myself do it because I'm like, whatever, it's fine. It's okay. 'cause I'm having fun. Or I'm like, whoa, this is uncalled for right now.

Alison: You know. Back to the whole awareness. What game are you playing? We're not always playing D&D where you're supposed to fight. Sometimes

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: we're playing Shadowdark when you're supposed to run.

Matt: Oh damn. Oh damn.

Alison: Sometimes finding the trap is the end of that encounter. We don't have to sit there and dismantle it. The door is trapped for a reason. There's something beyond that we're not supposed to be

Matt: Right.

Alison: Walk away.

Matt: Right.

Alison: whoa.[00:40:00]

Matt: Whoa, I love it.

Alison: There's

Matt: This was a really, this was, this was a really good outline, AK

Alison: So weird. What happened when I had structures, rules, and a plan? Do

Matt: I.

Alison: people know about this? Should we tell them?

Matt: I think we just did, but you know, I'm not knocking the, the times we, we don't have one. So yeah, take, take care of yourself, peeps out there that find themselves overstimulated. You're not alone and you're definitely not alone.

Alison: I will, tell you something that I've, every therapist I've ever had has reminded me, and it's hard to hear sometimes, so buckle up. But it's true. You are not responsible for the feelings you have, but you are responsible for the reactions to those feelings.

Matt: Yep.

Alison: You're gonna get overwhelmed. You're gonna get overstimulated, you're gonna get stressed, unhappy, and a hoard of other [00:41:00] feelings.

Alison: We would not prefer to feel if

Matt: Yep.

Alison: Those things happen to you, but then you get to choose what you do with it.

Matt: That's true. Very, very good. Mic officially dropped

Alison: Thank you to all my therapists and especially my current one, Meredith.

Matt: and thank you to you for being on my podcast, no, thank you for you, for,

Matt: uh, thank you for you.

Alison: asked.

Matt: Thanks to you for allowing me to make all of these discoveries myself. So,

Alison: Some ding dang Queen of Strength, Queen of Wands energy

Matt: I like it. I like it. I like that. Lattice work. Crisscross. Crisscross. And make it jump. Jump, make, make.

Matt: in our own lanes.

Matt: [00:42:00] Yeah. Come on lane.

Alison: P. P. P. Pew, pew, pew. PP.