Matt: Yay.

Uh, hi, Alison.

Alison: There it is.

Matt: Uh, Dale.

You're gonna find that, that
most of this podcast, if you, you

know, if you have been listening,
it is mostly just us giggling.

It's pretty much 80%
giggling, but, uh, yeah.

Hi Alison.

Uh, I'm really, really excited about today
because, uh, we have a very special guest.

Um, this has been already, this
has been twice the amount of

guests that we had last year.

Is that right?

Alison: In episode four, like, we
are making great time with this.

Matt: It's the best thing ever.

It's the best thing ever.

Alison: And not only do we have a, a
very special guest who you're gonna

meet in a second, but it's, somebody
that we didn't previously know.

We made a whole new friend, uh,
who wanted to come, come talk to

us about the intersection of ADHD
and tabletop role playing games.

So let us stop talking and
let's let him start talking.

Please welcome to today's show,
Dale Critchley of Publishing.

Dale,

Dale: everybody.

Alison: great to meet you.

Matt: Thanks for being here,

Dale: I'm Dale Critchley, uh, owner and
Chief Tea Drinker of Wyrmworks Publishing.

And, um, we are dedicated to
helping you make lives better

with tabletop role playing games.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Love that.

When you say chief tea drinker,
we talking like Caduceus Clay tea,

or what's, what's your favorite?

Dale: I start out my, my morning, uh,
with a blend of, hazelnut chestnut

and, um, and chocolate that's
called, Uh, "They Said It Was Nuts".

Matt: They said it was nuts!

Alison: So good.

Tea-rrific..

A really brew-ti-ful story.

Matt: Alison is the resident pun meister.

Alison: I could listen to you
talk about tea for oolong time

Dale: That's really That's well done.

I, you know, in our house, that's
me, but, um, I didn't get much

sleep last night, so, you know.

Matt: Gosh.

Yeah.

Okay.

I love it.

I love it.

So would that make you the C Tea O
and the CEO of Wyrmworks Publishing?

Alison: See get on this level, Mattie

Dale: I'm just gonna bag on me now.

Matt: No.

Um, it is, uh, you know, I
have, been, uh, uh, just kind of

obsessed with Limitless Heroics.

Um, which for those of you don't know.

is, a book published by
warm works publishing.

and is a, if not the comprehensive
compendium of mechanics, monsters

spells all, all manner of things.

Uh, that allow you to play D&D
5e characters with disabilities.

Uh, and it is incredible, and I'm so
sad that I have not, I did not know that

it existed before now because, in the
more current three years that we've been

playing, we've already built characters
as a group that, that would so have

benefited from the mechanics that you've
put together in that amazing book.

Like it is, it's astounding
how, how well thought out it is.

We have a character with DID that we
play with, and the kind of conceptual

rules that you have put together
just make so much more sense than

the ones that we kind of try to do.

Because it has this beautiful balance
of something to play and honoring, but

respecting, uh, the disability and, and
understanding it, you know you go online.

And it's like, oh, don't do it.

It's so disrespectful.

And so,

Dale: Mmm-hmm.

Matt: But I disagreed.

I think that if you do it and
you really take it, seriously, I

learned a whole lot about something
that I don't know as much about.

Right?

But you're, this book, so many
more people need to know about this

thing, cuz it's really, really great.

Uh, everything that you're

Dale: I appreciate that.

I mean, you know, it, what, what really
made the difference was, um, just the

number of people that we talked to.

When I first got started immediately,
I, I started, you know, reaching

out to people and saying, um,
look, I'm working on this thing.

I don't know what it's gonna turn into.

But, if you'll just talk to me
about your experiences and let

me bounce some thoughts off of
you, you know, back and forth.

Um, I'll give you a free copy.

I, yeah, I can't really promise anything
more than that at this point cuz I had

no idea what it was gonna turn into.

Um, and, and just a whole bunch
of people started saying, wow,

this is so needed there, you know?

And, uh, you know, thank
you so much for doing this.

And and then we went from there.

Once I figured out that this was gonna
be more than just, uh, some little

thing on DM's Guild and said, if
we're gonna do this properly, we're

gonna need a Kickstarter just so we
can have the funding to do it right.

And, um, started hiring editors and,
and sensitivity consultants and.

And then once we had the manuscript done
and the, the Kickstarter was done, we sent

it out to, we had 2300 backers and we sent
out the manuscript and said, take a look

at this and if, if you are, represented
in here, um, take a look at what we

have and tell us, um, are we accurately,
uh, expressing, uh, your experience.

And we had, uh, 900 people
downloaded it and looked at it.

We got 90 pages of feedback and went
through and looked at every single

point and said, and, and you know.

And sometimes there was points
where, because people's experiences

are so different, two different
people have very different, you

know, thoughts on, on expressing it.

And, and so we say, okay, how do we
encompass both of these experiences

into one, you know, game mechanic?

Matt: Right.

Dale: But we did it and, uh, but
we had really great team and so

I'm, I'm really thankful for them.

I'm thankful for just all the,
the people that, um, subscribe to

our emails and, and, give feedback
and, you know, and, and respond.

And it's, it's really, it's a community.

And it's just, it, it's great
to to connect with people.

And, I was, I was just talking to
a reporter, this morning, about a

what will hopefully be a upcoming
article on a pretty major website.

And he said, you know, can you,
can you point me to more resources,

more people that are doing the
kind of stuff that you're doing?

And I said, well, um, there, there are.

Uh, but it's, you know,
there's, there's not a lot.

It's, it's strange because it's seen as
this sort of niche, but we're talking

about representing 25% of the population.

Matt: Right.

Alison: Hmm.

Dale: Like that's not a niche.

you know, imagine if you had a
game world with only white people

or, um, you know, or only men or,
you know, or something like that.

Like that would be weird.

And so like, okay, a game world
with only, you know, able-bodied,

neurotypical people, you know, like, hmm.

Matt: Right?

Alison: I, I'm kind of interested
in zooming out for a quick

second and, and hearing a little
bit about your origin story.

So how did you get into, uh, specifically
D&D or tabletop role playing games in

general, which is probably, I'm guessing,
what triggered this realization that

there was just not enough representation.

Uh, you know, within the modules.

Dale: So I've been playing D&D since
I was 10, which would be 1982, and,

after I got married, um, like I just
got busy with other stuff and couldn't

find a group that, you know, where it
kind of fit into my schedule and stuff.

And, and I kind of drifted
away for about 20 years.

And I mean, D&D was always part of who
I was, even when I wasn't playing, you

know, it was just, it was something
that I would talk about and, and stuff.

And, um, then in 2019, I was, uh,
I was, uh, a pastor at a church.

And, we had a couple dozen, teens
that, many of them were coming

from, uh, disadvantaged, situations.

And, um, and I was looking to just
bring more adults into their lives.

And I thought, you know, kids just need
mentors and, and adults that care about

them that aren't their parents and stuff.

And I thought, you know, how do
we, what do we do to, kind of

bridge that, that gap and in a,
in a very comfortable kind of way.

D&D!

Like, I mean, it's, it's, it's equalizer.

And, so I said, all right, let's do this.

And I, bought a bunch of books
on D&D Beyond so that I could

share 'em, um, with everybody.

And, that was kind of my first
introduction to Fifth Edition.

And, and I loved it.

Second edition was the last thing
I played before that with a little

bit of, of 3.5 that I hated.

So, So then, um, yeah, we the
first night you know, that we, we got

together, um, 18 people showed up,
ranged in age from 15 to, um, retired.

So we, we kinda spread 'em out,
two different tables and then

quickly went to three tables.

and just had a nice kind of age
range and a range of different,

um, you know, like experience with
the game and, and stuff like that.

And, two those groups are still
going today, uh, even though

I'm not a pastor anymore.

But I saw the, the powerful
impact that it had.

You know, I had, um, kids struggling
with depression that, you know,

they, they go, oh man, I just like
trying to get through the week.

And then I remembered,
oh, it's D&D Monday.

All right, I can get through the
week . And, uh, you know, just seeing

the, the relationships, I, wow,
this is, this is really powerful.

And it was something that I
always knew, but then, you know,

really seeing it in action.

I was working in a, a group home for
a little while and, that's when I

started, to work on, um, Limitless
Heroics, where at first I just thought,

you know, what, if, what if we just
created some, some prosthesis, or, you

know, other like assistive devices.

Um, like I have a, a
daughter with epilepsy.

And I said, okay, what if, if you
had, a ring, uh, or some other magic

device where, got three charges and
you can either use those charges to

stave off a seizure or to give you
protection from lightning damage.

but like you have to choose, like,
well, okay, I can use it to protect

me from lightning, but then I've got
less to, you know, tell me with that,

which is, you know, when you talk about
assistive, uh, devices, technology,

medication, all that kind of stuff.

It always has its, its trade offs.

And, um, and I really wanted to do
something like that, that, kind of gave,

that, that understanding that there's no
just sort of magic thing that makes things

go away or, or all better or whatever.

And so then, then I started
looking around and I realized that.

Okay.

Well, what we're talking about though
is, is creating assistive technology

for disabilities or other experiences
that don't actually exist in game.

Like this is a solution
to a non-existent problem.

Okay.

So first we need to figure out how
to introduce those experiences into

the game, so that it works with that.

And then, I thought, you know, so often
disabled and, and neurodiverse, um, people

are just not included, you know, period.

And I thought, okay, well if I
do something like this, I don't

want anyone to feel excluded.

And in hindsight, this may be where
the ADHD kicked in, there was just

like, well, let's do everything.

Matt: Let's do all the things.

Let's research everything.

Dale: And, um, and so I did and,
and so . So I, I broke it down by

what we originally called symptoms.

And then, uh, after some feedback,
we changed it to traits because

symptoms had a negative connotation.

Because I noticed as I started
researching it that, you know, there's

so much overlap, any given diagnosis,
um, may have multiple traits or

experiences associated with it where
there's overlap with other experiences.

Which I mean honestly is why things
are misdiagnosed, because like, well,

it could be this, could be that.

Alison: How do we get the
medical community to look at and

frame comorbidities this way?

Because I'm already much more interested
in having this conversation with this

framing than I am, you know, in any other
way medically than I have been before.

Dale: Well, when we sent it out, you
know, to the backers, one of the people

that got back to us said, the way that
we had personality disorders broken down,

we had 'em according to their, the way
that they're grouped and, and diagnosed.

And they said, you know, in the latest DSM
there's an alternate way of, of doing it

where it's actually broken down into the
specific, um, different traits instead

of trying to group them and, and even
has the different levels, just like the

impact sense that, that you're using.

And, and I looked at, I went, oh wow.

This is perfect.

And so, I mean, it was like
four pages that we had to

completely rewrite from scratch.

Um, but it was so much better.

And, um, so yeah, it like took a
couple extra days just to do that,

but yeah, it was like, wow, why
don't they do this with everything

Matt: It's so worth it though,
because you really do a fantastic

job of that, of, I mean, you start
off by saying, look, I am one person.

I am a white male.

I am 50.

I am this, I'm that.

Uh, I don't pretend to know everything and
there's no way I could know everything.

I loved that, because this is also
something that people are afraid of.

They're afraid to talk about it.

I mean, my wife, who's profoundly
deaf, she's either in a world, in a

disability community where everyone is,
is constantly aware, uh, which is amazing.

Or, she's in the opposite world where
everyone is very much aware of her and

doesn't wanna say anything, doesn't wanna
speak about it, doesn't wanna do anything.

She rarely gets to be in a sort of a
middle ground where it's like, I, I don't

know anything, but I'm, I'm right there.

I'm man, woman person enough to
admit that and to say it and look,

just, it's, don't be scared of it.

Just talk about it.

Just, just learn about it.

ask about it.

Alison: And Matt, even it, it makes
me think about, you know, for, there

was a time when you didn't want to
label your own ADHD as a disability.

But we've had many talks about
that, that if we go by the actual

definition of a disability, various
points of neuro diversion like

ADHD have absolutely fit the bill.

Um, and more so, you know, books like
Limitless Heroics, you know, help a

very wide range of people, you know,
see themselves, uh, in here, rather

than trying to define it as one specific
thing, a disability is this single path.

which

Dale: I mean, and, you know,
and that's the whole thing.

We're trying to, we're trying to just
normalize it and, and I, I think a

lot of, of, game developers, right?

Or, uh, people just at, you know, uh,
gaming groups and stuff like that,

like I said, are, they're afraid
that they're gonna do it wrong.

So they don't do it.

Matt: mm-hmm.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Dale: The exclusion
doesn't make it better.

Matt: That you, that's a better way
of saying what I was trying to say.

Exactly.

Dale: Yeah, And when, when I,
when word kind of started to get

out in the community, that I was
working on this, I mean, there was

a lot of really negative reaction.

Um, just this past weekend I ran
into, I got hammered on Reddit.

And, it was some, you know, very
legitimate concerns about, okay, this

could be done really poorly and has
been done really poorly in the past.

Like I knew, okay, I've
gotta do this right.

I'm committed to doing this right.

That's why we have what, 5, 5, 6, um,
sensitivity readers on Limitless Heroics.

Plus the whole team, uh, all of
the, the writers, editors, artists,

um, all disabled or neurodiverse,
mentally chronically ill.

Matt: Yeah.

Yeah.

Dale: But yeah, I just, the more we
can kind of bring this conversation and

bring this, you know, this awareness,
out into the open, uh, the more people

go, okay, well, you know, maybe this is
something that I can learn more about.

Yeah.

And don't beat yourself up
about like that you didn't know

everything to start out with.

Um, I mean, man, there's been so
many things in my life where, uh,

you know, I, I, I learned something
and I go, oh, I should have known

this a long time ago, but I didn't.

And, and like, I feel bad about it.

And it's like, well, you don't
know what you don't know.

And so you just, you can only do
the best you can with what you have.

Alison: It's very human way of approaching
something we talk about both on this

podcast and in our business of the blank
page syndrome of I'm not going to take

any steps forward because I don't know
what I'm doing and I'm anxious about it.

Versus take the steps forward,
make it messy, make it ugly.

But you know, that's the only way
that progress is ever gonna be made.

Uh, cuz you're not gonna

Matt: And then have your friends, yeah.

Have your friends double check
you and, and talk about it.

And I mean, we did not start this
podcast to, to necessarily, we didn't

know whether there'll be a community.

But the example of meeting you and,
and being able to start, a Discord

server and stuff to, to have people
say, oh yes, my, my daughter has

ADHD and I don't, and I don't get it.

And, and then for us to see this
community grow and to see like how we

are just by talking about it, opening
all kinds of doors, all kinds of things.

You know, I, I don't wanna dismiss
the, the people on Reddit that are,

that are chewing you out, because I've
been there too, and I know how that

feels and it feels really, really bad.

But you've got such a amazing attitude
about it cuz it's, it takes a lot to

develop a thick skin and to be able
to put yourself into those shoes and

say, okay, I don't necessarily agree.

I don't understand why they're so
angry, but I can, I can hear them,

I can process what they're saying.

And like you say, either offer
them a chance to help make

it better or say, okay, okay.

Don't worry.

I will still do my best to make it better.

And I mean, Dale, in this book
and just everything about the

website, you can see that.

You can see that it just comes
from such a, it's just such a great

place, uh, where your, your head is.

So kudos on every level for that.

Alison: Tell us a little bit about,
because you have a new, uh, crowdfunding

campaign, which was actually why
you'd initially reached out to us.

It went live a week ago.

You're already at 92% of
goal as of last I checked.

Uh, tell us a little bit about, you
know, how we've moved from Limitless

Heroics, uh, into this new campaign
and, you know, kind of what your,

your hopes and dreams are there.

Dale: Yeah.

So, um, so it's called Inclusive Artwork.

And, um, the idea was that when, all
right, so tabletop, gaming products

run on very shoestring budgets.

Um, you know, even, and, and some of
the stuff came out, uh, during the

recent OGL fiasco that, um, that you
see these like multi-million dollar

Kickstarters and stuff like that, and
you go, wow, that's a lot of money.

But then once you see all of the
expenses involved, depending on how

they manage their, funds and, and, and
stuff like that, uh, you know, some

of those actually end up in the hole.

And one of the big expenses with any
kind of, even, even a tiny little,

uh, thing you see on, on DM's Guild or
something like that, um, art is expensive.

Um, and, you know, just even a tiny
little art piece usually is gonna

cost you over a hundred dollars.

If you can find stock art, you can
get a nice piece for maybe like

two to six bucks, you know, maybe
a little bit more for some, like

a full page thing or something.

But, um, you know, that really makes
a difference and, and allows you to,

to produce, uh, a nice quality product
and still actually, you know, not end

up in the hole for all your effort.

And so I started looking around
for disability, uh, representation

in sort of D&D pictures.

and I looked on Drive Thru RPG and
there were a total of, it was one artist

created, uh, like, three, four pieces

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Dale: And.

That was it,

Matt: right?

Dale: And, um, and I looked
around in other stock art places

and I couldn't find anything.

And I went, wow.

And, and so I thought, okay, well if,
you know, if people want to include this

kind of, of representation, whether it's
in a publication or just at their game

table, if you're a, a DM that wants to
say, oh, here's what this NPC looks like.

And you want to have disabled NPCs, you
know, you just, you can't find that art.

It just simply doesn't exist.

But I talked to some of our artists and
I said, Hey, what would you think about

if we did a, a crowdfunded stock art,
campaign just to get some disability

representative stock art available,
and, um, and make it affordable.

I said, I want you to be
compensated properly, which is

why I want to crowdfund this.

but you know, I wanna make sure that,
that people can get this affordably,

uh, so that they can use it in
their products, in their games, you

know, wherever they want to use it.

and said, let's, let's make
a chart so that you can just

start kind of filling in.

We're not gonna hit every, you know,
combination, but, um, but at least

to, so that we get a nice variety.

Um, let's, uh, we put a list together
of, of other things like, um,

uh, assisted devices, uh, canes.

Uh, we have someone made some
prosthetic wings, and then just a,

a handful of, uh, service animals
and, and, and things like that.

So on, on Reddit, the thing that that
got a lot of people really upset was that

I said, neurodiversity representation.

And they said, how do you represent
neurodiversity and artwork?

Because it's not, uh,
like something that's

Matt: An invisible, yeah, yeah.

Dale: Right?

And so like, how do you do that
without resorting to tropes?

And so, I thought, okay, so if I'm,
you know, I'm, I'm like a fighter

who's traveling from place to place.

And so you have these long sort
of monotonous, just walking or

riding on some kind of mount.

And like how do you, how do you pass
the day and, and I'm just imagining,

okay, so I've got my, my sword by my
side and it's got either like some kind

of, um, you know, a little switch or
a, you know, some kind of like fidgety

thing or even uh, like a texture of some
kind, you know, something where I can

kind of slide and I'm like, that would be
like, I would want something like that.

That would be awesome.

And, and so, so it's the sort of
thing that where we could have a

sword, you know, that has something
built into the handle for people that

would appreciate something like that.

It'd be subtle.

And yet if you have a character, because
stock art isn't about like, here's

everything about this, but rather here's
just a visual representation of one aspect

of this character, which presumably in
the supplement where this appears, that

character would be more fleshed out.

But it's like, yeah, here's
their sword, you know?

And, um, you know, so I, I presented
that idea and like they got really

Alison: Dale, are you, are you, are

Dale: got mad

Alison: you telling me that like
my obsession with various textures

and like constantly running my
fingers over them is my ADHD.

That's my stemming?

Matt: Oh, you didn't know that?

Oh, no, we haven't.

We haven't had that episode yet.

Oh no.

Mine is hems.

Alison: I love it.

I love it when we learn new things.

Dale: It, it, I mean, it, it,
it was a pretty recent thing,

you know, that I figured out.

especially when, um, when, when I was a
pastor and like, I'm preaching, right?

And, and to connect with
your, uh, with your audience.

A lot of times I would start
out with, you know, like, have

you ever had this experience?

You ever do this or is that just me?

You know?

And, and, and it was sort of a
rhetorical question, like, because

the implication is is like, yeah,
yeah, we all experience that.

And then I found out that a
lot of the times people were

like, nah, it's just you.

And I went,

Matt: No, I don't know what

Dale: oh,

Matt: about.

That's amazing.

Dale: Oh, you know, and,
and now I, oh, that's adhd.

That's, uh, oh, that's some of the, you
know, depression that I am dealing with,

or, you know, or something like that.

And,

Matt: You, you mentioned before,
not beating yourself up because

that's so, so hard for us not to do.

And especially when we're not diagnosed
and we don't like, there's some

joys in saying, oh wait, I'm unique.

And also there's some frustrations in
saying, oh, right, it's so much harder

for me to do this than other people.

It seems like.

Dale: but I mean, man, it does
help though because, I mean, there

are so many things where, um,
like I'm just really bad at names.

Uh, just remembering names and, um, you
know, when, when you're a pastor and.

There's, you've got like 300 people that
all feel like if you don't know their

name after, you know, a, a few years
that you just must not care about them.

And, um, and it's like, well, you
know, you've been here for a few years.

You, you ought to, you know,
have names down by now.

It's like, well, not everybody
wears name tags all the time.

And, um, you know, and so there's plenty
of people that I didn't learn their names

the first few weeks, and then after that
they stopped introducing themselves.

And so, like, I'm not gonna ask 'em now.

And, um, but you know, once I, I found
out, oh, like that's an ADHD thing.

Oh, so this isn't like some
personal failing of mine.

It's just neurological.

It's just the way that my brain is wired
and it's like, it's, it's physical,

you know,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: You know, I, I think, for the
people that are giving you a hard time

on the internet I, I understand why they,
how they could get upset, but I love

that you, I love your explanation of it.

And at the bottom line,
it it doesn't matter.

You're, these people
are making it for you.

Yeah.

Dale: My, my thick skin
is all scar tissue.

So you, you get attacked enough
that you just kind of, okay.

No, I actually, I ran
across a great, um, quote.

From Victor Hugo that said
something like, you have enemies.

Well, that just means you have
accomplished something meaningful

or, uh, or innovative in your
life, or something like that.

Um, and, and, and that's
just what goes with it.

and, and then I found out that
there's different versions

of that quote out there.

And, the one that's quoted most often
is the version that was written by Ed

Greenwood in a Forgotten Realms book.

Um, yeah,

Matt: I love that.

Wow.

Well, we're gonna put all of the, all of
the links of course, in the things, and,

and talk about this new crowdfunder.

How much more time does it have?

Dale: Till the middle of March,

Matt: Perfect.

Yay.

Alison: So people will have plenty
of time to go visit the link that

will be in the show notes once we
post this episode, uh, to support the

really cool work that Dale's doing.

I, I think the way we're gonna have
to end this episode is the way that

we normally begin the episode, which
is by rolling on our d100 table.

Matt: I love that.

Yeah.

Alison: Oops.

See, we were just, we were so
excited that we forgot both our names

and our own mechanics at the top.

Dale: Seems somehow fitting.

All right.

Got my shiny math rocks right here.

Alison: Yeah.

Ooh,

Matt: 95.

And I heard some sort of tower too.

Alison: Super fun roll.

Uh, Dale, what is your favorite cartoon?

Matt: Hmm.

Dale: Favorite cartoon.

Oh, wow.

So many to draw from.

Well, it depends on, you know,
like there's action ones and then

there's comedy and stuff like that.

All right.

Um, I will go with Pinky and the Brain.

Alison: Yes.

Dale: Yes.

Um, because I, you know, the, the
whole concept of what are we gonna do

tonight, same thing we do every night.

Try and take over the world.

And, um, that's kind of my goal in life.

Of, not necessarily take over
the world, but change the world.

Um, it's like, what are
we gonna do tonight?

Same thing you do every night.

Try to change the world.

You know?

And, I've got a real long list of,
of failures just like Brain, um, that

for a, a very long time, kind of felt
like everything I touch, explodes.

But yeah, I'm just gonna keep trying.

Alison: This was so fun, Dale.

Thank you so much for offering
yourself up because we loved it.

Matt: And, and for the cause itself and
for what you're doing and trying to make

the world better, and, I mean, I don't
wanna be too forward, but I feel like when

you wrote, I really, we really did find
a kindred spirit in what you're trying

to do and you're doing it even you know,
better and more publicly than we are.

But you're an inspiration to us and,
uh, we wanna continue this, this

relationship as much as best we can.

Dale: Absolutely.

I'm, I'm, I'm thrilled.

And, uh, you know, , I, I found
that even with my own show,

um, Gaining Advantage that, uh,

that I've, I've, I've gone back
and, when I'm editing the, uh, the

transcript, I, I find, oh, wow.

I just really went off on
a tangent there, didn't I?

And um, and, and I realized that you
know, my ADHD comes out in, in, in that.

And, and so this, this whole
idea that, neuro divergent people

are more comfortable around
other neuro divergent people.

For example, on, um, Limitless Heroics
where we, we had, those kind of, of

social traits like here's when, if
you're around somebody else that,

that has the same thing, then any
kind of modifiers in that disappear.

And, um, and,

and, And so,

Matt: Yeah.

Dale: Because it's just, it's, it's
not that you're incapable of, of

communicating, you're just, you
just do it in a different way.

And, and so, just being able to, to
be, on, on a show like this where,

Matt: Everything that you say is gold.

Everything you say is

Dale: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, it's like I don't, it's
like, oh, went off on a tangent.

Oh, this fully expected, like,
that's part of the show, you know?

Um,

Alison: that.

Matt: We're on that tangent.

Oh, man.

I, I, I actually wrote down how much I
love that mechanic and, and so I'm so glad

that you brought it up, the adjustable.

and it's so true.

It's so true.

Like to find your people and to, you
know, be able to speak and say, Oh no.

I truly understand.

I am right there.

That's so cool.

That's so cool.

Well, there's just so much we could
keep chitter chattering about,

but I know we have to let you go.

thank you so much for being

Alison: Thank you Dale, and hopefully this
is just the start of many conversations

Dale: Yeah,

Alison: all of these exciting initiatives.

Dale: Yeah.

Thanks so much.

It's so great to meet you
guys in person and everything.

Matt: Same, same, same, same.

And we're gonna, we're gonna plug this in
every, every small corner that we have.

And best of luck on all of that

and, and everything in the future.

Perfect.

Thank you so

much.

Talk to you

soon.

Alison: you, Dale.

All right.

Bye.

Matt: Thank you for listening and
being a part of our ADHd20 and larger

Bivins Brothers Creative community.

If you're looking for more,
we have a hoppin' Discord that

a couple of us affectionately
call the Honeycomb Kill Room.

Look for the join link in the show notes.

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but also TV, comics, video games,
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really anything else on our minds.

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