Matt: Hi Um, this is kind of an
old school ADHd20 in that, we're

less prepared than we have been.

We used to like winging.

Alison: We do still have one of our
primary tenets, which is an outline that

we're gonna possibly throw out the window.

Matt: Exactly.

Yeah.

Alison: So we just keep getting
throwbackier and throwbackier.

I love it.

I love the good throwback

Matt: Throwbackier.

Alison: Throwbackier!

Matt: Throwbackier!

Alison: I often say like if
I need assistance, I will find

myself calling for an adult.

Like help.

I need an adult.

And people try and point out,
but Alison, you are an adult.

To which I reply, right?

But I need an adultier adult.

Matt: Adultier adult, yes.

Alison: Throwbackier throwback
is just, fits right into that

little lexicon I've got going on.

Matt: Lexiconier lexicon?

That's true.

Uh, what are we going to speak, uh, about?

Oh, yes.

Sorry.

First we have to say, Welcome
everybody to ADHd20, A podcast where

we try to find the intersection
between ADHD and D&D and or RPGs.

Alison: In 2023.

We haven't, settled on if
we're saying D&D or RPGs, and

I'm okay with being unsettled.

Matt: Yeah.

I wonder what we're gonna feel like
after Gary Con, in just a few short

weeks where we are going to be playing
a ton of foreign RPGs and maybe

we will just be just swept away.

Alison: Mattie, we could potentially
record the next episode of ADHd20

live together with our friend Fitz.

There it is.

Matt: You absolutely are correct.

We can definitely do that.

Alison: Are we gonna just follow
Fitz around with that sound effect?

You know, like we're gonna be together
live in person and you're gonna be like,

Alison, what do you want for dinner?

And I'm gonna say, I don't know Fitz.

What are you feeling?

And

Matt: I bet you, I bet you I
could create a Siri shortcut.

Alison: I was gonna say, let's
creep her out and do it, but this

episode will be out before that.

So

Matt: Yeah, that's true.

Alison: Surprise, Fitz.

We're gonna follow you around
with your own sound effect.

You're welcome.

Matt: Creepy.

Alison: Creepy, creepy,

Matt: Creepy

Alison: Speaking of Fitz, she
actually submitted a question that

we're gonna tackle here in a few.

But first, shall we ADHd100?

Matt: Yes, yes.

All right.

Who wants to go first?

Alison: I will this time.

I'm number 25.

Matt: 25.

What items have you crossed
off your bucket list?

Alison: Oh.

Um, have I crossed any
items off my bucket list?

My current working bucket list is I do
I want to see a concert or a show of

some sort in every state in the country.

Because I think that there's a lot of
cool venues in, in, I mean, all over

the world, but I think the United States
of America is a great place to start.

Uh, not even close to accomplishing
that bucket list, although I

do have a very strong showing
across the eastern seaboard.

I'm vamping for time here while I try
and figure out if there's anything

cool I can answer this with, um,

Matt: That's pretty cool.

You like music?

That's

Alison: But, but I haven't done it.

And so that's not answering the question,
which is have you, um, I'm, I don't know

if it was ever bucket list, but like
having a podcast is, is kind of up there.

I used to wanna be a radio
dj, like really super badly.

So getting, yeah, getting my voice onto
the airwaves was, was a big thing for me.

And I'll also say that going on
tour with that fun little band was

like, I wanted to be, performing
on said tour, but I, like, I was, I

was close enough to count, I think.

So we'll, consider those two things
headway that I've made on the bucket list.

Matt: Nice.

I love that.

Um, Oh my gosh, I got a one.

Alison: Whoa.

Okay.

Tell us about the first D&D
character you ever built.

Do you remember?

Matt: Oh, Oh no.

I don't really remember
as I was 10 years old.

And I'm sad about that.

I spent this summer hoping to find buried
treasure in a, in a, storage space.

And I came up empty.

I was hoping I was gonna find little
Matt Bivins' binder full of D&D

stuff, but don't know, still missing.

Um, I guess I could say more
about the more recent, right?

Uh, I, created a half drow elf who...

name was Feilimid and Feilimid was female,
but had spent many, many years in hiding,

uh, being hunted by her Drow family.

And, so Feilimid in to go into
hiding presented as a boy.

So when we started playing, uh, my
character was male, and then there

was this big reveal where Feidlimid
Oh no, actually Feilimid was female.

Alison: What?

Matt: What?

So that was really fun though.

And Feilimid was a bard.

Oh

Alison: So fun.

love Fei.

Matt: I know.

Good old Fei

Alison: Look how far we have come
from our first characters to now.

Matt: Look how wise we are.

Alison: Wizened!

Sage!

Matt: So wizened.

Alison: What a great word.

Matt: I know, I know.

I was about to say this
same word, which is amazing.

All right, well that was fun.

Alison: Always.

Matt: Got a couple of topics today.

I think we should start
with Fitz's perhaps.

Alison: So we have a sweet little
Discord server that we grow more

and more obsessed with by the day.

Uh, and like to kind of poll the
crowd from time to time and see if

there's any ADHD or TTRPG things that
we haven't brought up or haven't,

haven't delved enough into detail yet.

So, Fitz asked a great question, and that
is, I'd love to know if y'all are hit by

the ADHD tax, and if so, in what ways?

Are they the same or different?

Are there hidden costs that
you've been hit up with

specifically in the TTRPG space?

Because of the ADHD tax?

Matt: I love it.

Okay, so first let's go
over what the ADHD tax is.

Um,

Alison: My suggestion too

Matt: Yeah, so okay from ADDitude,
the website, ADDitude, which is

actually, you know, one of the,
one of the main ADHD websites.

Uh, It says the tax is why people
with ADHD compared to non ADHD

peers, they're poorer in financial
situations and exhibit difficulties

with financial decision making.

Number one, they exhibit poorer
financial competency and capacity.

They are more financially dependent
on family members and they earn

less and attain lower socioeconomic
standing over their lifetimes.

It's the obvious and the hidden
costs of living with the condition.

And so like they, they give
examples of I had to go to the city

courthouse for overdue library books.

The library books were
in the trunk of my car.

They belonged to the library.

I drove by every day on my
way to work, accruing fines.

I'm years behind on taxes.

Because doing the taxes is difficult.

I waste so much time shopping for
groceries that only end up going bad.

I waste even more money buying fast food.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: those kinds of things.

Alison: Yep.

We

Matt: pay for that and I, we do, I do.

I don't know about

Alison: Oh, I definitely do.

I, the grocery one is huge to the
point where I, I have rearranged my

refrigerator so that, like, one of the
popular TikTok trends for ADHD and other

executive dysfunction management thereof
is putting your condiments in the, uh,

in the, the fruit and veggie drawers.

Yeah, the crisper.

Cuz you're gonna, like, if you want
mustard for your sandwich, you're gonna go

find the mustard, but you have to put the
asparagus and the apples front and center.

So every time you open that, and I
have done that and it really does help.

Um,

Matt: I have found a
problem with that though.

Uh, now my vegetables are not as crisp.

Alison: Maybe you just need to
do like more short bursts more

frequently to the grocery store.

I've also written myself notes,
you know, so maybe you could put

everything back in the crisper but
write yourself a little love note on

the door and say, Matt, don't forget.

My favorite, uh, part of the ADHD
tax is how willfully ignorant the

rest of the population is about it,
case in point, I, use HelloFresh.

So subscription-based meal boxes and
subscription-based things are terrible

for people with ADHD cuz we forget.

I forgot I had, skipped
several weeks in a row.

So I, I wasn't thinking about it since
it had been so long since I'd ordered

a box that somehow a week crept in.

Suddenly I got charged the same
day I went to the grocery store and

bought a week's worth of groceries.

So then it was like double burn that
I had just gone and spent the fortune

that now groceries cost, and then
also got charged again for a box that

was coming, So I tried to chat their
help line and say, could, could you

give me a a hall pass on this, please?

And they had all these excuses for why,
well, we've already printed the slip

and in the end I got half the cost of
the box back and still received the box.

So it wasn't the end of the world.

Um, And the, the agent's, you
know, fix for it was, just

set a calendar reminder for

Matt: No, they actually said

Alison: They said that.

Yeah.

Matt: Rude.

Alison: Yeah, I had tweeted, uh, a
couple of weeks ago, I am notoriously

bad at putting a soda in the
freezer to get it really icy cold.

99 times out of a hundred I forget about
it, and come back to an exploded soda.

And so I, I, I wrote a very quippy
tweet of like, I'm just a girl

standing in front of future versions
of herself, asking her to please

stop putting sodas in the freezer.

Matt: The freezer.

Alison: So many well-meaning
people were like, oh, set a timer.

Oh, oh.

If it was that easy.

Okay.

Um, so, and I know that these are
real things that a lot of people

do, so they don't do exactly that,
but it is, it is not my, you have

to get into the flow state with it.

Right.

You have to remember, drink goes in
freezer, timer goes on phone, and I just

have yet to figure out part B of that.

So yeah.

ADHD tax all over the place here.

I've been trying this whole time to
think of though, cuz Fitz's question

was, are there hidden costs you've
been hit up specifically in the

tabletop role playing game space?

Matt: Yes.

Um, right now, currently my
tax is supporting all of the,

incredible Patreon artists.

I have to, okay.

I have to actually set a monthly
task that keeps vomiting up, that

says, check your subscriptions on
Patreon, because I usually join them

to get something, which is fine.

You can, you're allowed to do that.

That's the thing about
You can jump on and off.

Uh, so I get on and I get what I
want and then, you know, but I have

to remember to move things around.

So I'm definitely hit by that.

I would say 95% of my Patreon, the people
that I'm supporting at Patreon are RPG.

I also have a problem with
buying rules and, adventures

and just guides of all kind.

I just can't seem to not do that.

And they're all great.

I'm never disappointed, but it's
a tax because it's not necessary

and it's difficult for me to, um,

Alison: Oh yeah.

I was very convinced that I needed
the newly released hardcover

Taldori Reborn campaign setting.

You wanna guess how many times I have
flipped open that beautiful book?

Pretty sure it's sitting on my bedroom
floor where I took it out of it's box

Matt: Mm-hmm.

so much of that.

So much of that.

Alison: I I was limiting my ADHD
tax to subscription based things,

but now that I think about it,
yeah, there's a lot of stuff

Matt: That's it too, right?

Like that's, uh,

Alison: My dice bag is just
full of full of shinies I had to

have, I could not live without.

Matt: Right, because that's
the impulsive part, right?

That's the impulsive part of, ADHD.

And yes, someone could also
say, well, just don't do that.

But it's, you know, even when we do put
it on our calendar, cuz I do, I'll set

up a subscription to watch something on
a channel that we don't usually subscribe

to when we watch, when I watch the
series, I have to put five alarms that

start five days before, and sometimes
even then I don't do it even then.

Alison: There is for the record, for
anybody wondering though, if I can

change, there is a weekly recurring
Hello Fresh reminder in my calendar.

Matt: That's good.

Alison: I'm learning, I'm growing

Matt: There's a doctor named Russell
Barkley, and he, he's one, you know, we,

we've talked about how ADHD, attention
deficit hyperactivity disorder is a

terrible name for how our brains work, but
he calls it intention deficit disorder.

Alison: Ooh.

Matt: I still don't think that that
covers all of it, but Intention

Deficit Disorder, It, it's so funny
because I've met, I've met people

who are not motivated to do things.

And, and I see that that is
different from what I go through.

I have every intention to do well.

I have every intention to remember,
I have every intention to do that

thing on my list, cancel that
subscription, whatever it is.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: But there is literally
something broken in the doing.

Alison: Yep.

Matt: It's not laziness and
it's so hard to describe that.

And the, and the sad thing and the
frustrating thing is that so many

people who have ADHD and don't know it,
myself included at one point, just so,

because you're like, I guess I'm lazy.

I guess I'm just lazy because...

Alison: yeah.

I bought for a really long time that I
was lazy while simultaneously bouncing

off of walls because I absolutely
have the hyperactive part of ADHD and

always have, and I remember there being
like, even as a child, me being like,

I don't feel lazy, but I am exhibiting
the symptoms that others, of course, I

didn't think it in that eloquent of a
way, but yeah, absolutely intentioned.

I like that a lot.

I did just think of another one, um, that
I think ties into RSD is how many times

as neurodivergent types have we not asked
for something that we deserved because

we were afraid of the fear of rejection.

That's an ADHD tax.

You know, I, I just, for one of my
clients just asked for a new hourly rate

for the first time in five plus years.

Because I had myself convinced
that I, it's, it's not even that

I thought I was undeserving, but
I just had talked myself out of it

before I ever asked the question.

I didn't give the client
the chance to respond.

And as soon as I said, Hey, I, I,
I hate to have to do this, but you

know, my rate's gotta increase.

They said, okay, great.

Tell us what the new rate is.

Easy peasy lemon squeezy.

How many times have I, just the fear of
rejection has paralyzed me to the point.

And is that an ADHD tax
or is that just living?

Um, we could ponder that one all day.

Matt: Yes, I think it's
absolutely a part of it.

And then going back to you, you
know, contacting Hello Fresh and,

and saying, Hey, look, I, I did this
and you know, let's pretend that they

didn't, they didn't condescend to
you and say, put it on your calendar.

Uh, you know, let's pretend
that that didn't happen.

But there have been so many times
where I've had to force myself to,

to say, oh, I missed the thing.

I missed, I missed the deadline.

They charged me.

Guess what happens?

Most of the time they say, oh yes, sorry.

No problem.

Yeah, you missed the deadline.

That's okay.

I'll take it off.

So, so many times.

But I'm afraid, I'm
afraid for them to say no.

I'm afraid for them to say,
ah, no, you missed the time.

Go to hell.

Alison: Yep.

Matt: But yeah,

Alison: ADHD tax!.

Matt: Yeah.

uh,

Alison: Shall we dive into the big

Matt: a good one.

Alison: chewy topic now?

Matt: Yeah.

Let's dive into the chewy topic.

That was a really good one though.

Thank you, Fitz.

Alison: Thank you, Fitz.

Matt: Yeah.

was, fun.

Um, but yes, this other topic, came up.

Uh, my brother and I we were giving advice
to someone in the Bivins Brothers Show.

We were asked if we had Any tips
and tricks to someone's first

time playing Dungeons and Dragons.

And, we had so much fun for
almost an hour talking about it.

We had professional, Dungeon Masters
in the, in the chat that were helping

us out and, and, it was so fun.

But here's the thing, the way that we
were talking about it, I kind of stepped

back and I was like, okay, wait a minute.

Do I sound super freaking culty right now?

Are we talking about a cult?

Are we talking about the
cult of Dungeons and Dragons?

And it really started sticking with me.

And a little bit of backstory is, I
have a lot of experience with cults.

I've not joined one myself, but I've had
two beloved people in my life join them.

And, one is still in a cult.

And then one is, well, depending on
who you talk to, is also possibly

still in the cult a different kind.

But anyway, um, I had a friend
that, I knew since he, he was eight

and we kind of grew up together.

We were neighbors and went to a high
school together and art school together,

and then we started a band together
and we moved up to Boston eventually.

Cause we played Irish music and we
went to Ireland and we then we said,

okay, we're going to move up to Boston.

So we moved to Boston and
before I even got there, I was

finishing up work in the south.

He Was approached by some people.

He was busking in the subway and they
said, oh, we also play Irish flute.

You should come and have dinner.

And he did.

And he is still there.

He's got five kids.

They moved him to England because he
was actually from ireland, but his

father is English is very complicated.

They have very strong beliefs
about, your father's origin is where

you are supposed to live, which
I don't, I don't really get it.

Um, But it was really,
really hard and weird.

And, what I did was, I was at
Emerson College at that point,

and I was going to be a writer.

I was taking writing classes,
every single creative writing task

I was given, I wrote about cults.

I went to the Scientology Place,
and I, and I kind of went in

and talked to the people at the
Scientology Center in Boston.

I did all this research on the Moonies,
and I mean, name 'em, Kool-Aid kids,

whatever they were called, Jim Jones.

And here's what, okay,
here was my takeaway.

Which I think was pretty adult for
me as a 22 year old or whatever.

The word cult is not inherently bad.

It is not a bad word.

It has been given a negative connotation
over the years and there certainly

have been dangerous, scary cults.

But, uh, a couple of the definitions
of cult are, a great devotion to a

person idea, object, movement or work.

The object of such a devotion.

At its simplest form, a system
of religious beliefs and ritual.

And I think when I got to a definition
like that, I said, oh, yeah, yeah, right.

So.

when Christianity started, when
Judaism started, when every

religion started, it was a cult.

It still is, I guess because it is a
system of religious beliefs and ritual.

Right?

So that really helped me with my
friend cuz I was like, okay, well

there are religions that literally
run the world in, in certain areas.

Those are, you know, they
have to start somewhere.

So maybe he's going to be okay.

And he is, he's fine.

He's fine.

I think, I don't know.

I think he's okay.

Uh, But then the definitions
get a little scarier.

A situation in which people
admire and care about something

or someone very much or too much.

Alison: Or too much.

Matt: And that's where I started worrying.

I was like, my, my, my
cult trigger's like, yeah.

So what do you think, Alison?

You have to talk about D&D as like,
you know, the game that you might try

once in your life, uh, you know, a
couple of buds wanna try something new

and say, okay, cool, we'll try D&D.

And you play it.

You move on.

Obviously not a cult.

But hearing you and me talk
about it, is it, a cult?

Alison: So everything that you've
just mentioned, uh, taken, you

know, kind of from various, by
the book definitions of a cult.

And also, yes, to answer your question
as uh, someone who identifies as

Christian, there are culty things
about it that I will go ahead and admit

out loud and speak into the world.

I think Alison's definition of a cult,
like the things I think about that

we haven't really, like, we've talked
about the object of devotion, right?

We've talked about a great
devotion to a person, right?

For me, the thing that separates
a cult from a group of friends

enjoying a hobby together.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: One, there is always
a very charismatic leader.

In D&D call this a Game Master.

Matt: Uh, oh.

Where are you going with this?

Okay.

Keep going.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Alison: The other part of that is if there
is a leader, there must be disciples.

There must be followers.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: And see, here's the thing, here's
where I, I, I would start to argue on the

pro could be considered a cult, could be
considered not black and white is a cult.

Okay, let me choose my words carefully
here, but could be considered a cult

because there is someone charismatic,
something charismatic, drawing

you in and holding you in place.

Uh, and it is a group of people who might
not find their way into each other's

lives otherwise, and might, I don't wanna
say, might be preyed upon that's a little

bit more serious than, I mean, although
that is a facet of some cults, right?

Um,

but I mean, those are, those are
kind of the two big facets for

me that, that do check the boxes
here in a non treacherous way.

Matt: And I, I think you just said it.

That, that is a big part of it.

Like, my friend Christopher, he, he
was preyed upon in, in the sense that

there were techniques used by his group,
and I, I'm sure he uses them now too.

It's the love bombing, right?

Like

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: And the, certain techniques
that, those charismatic leaders

kind of bring about and, and.

I don't see that so much in D&D.

I don't see that.

I definitely see this seclusion.

I definitely see the, there's,
room for cattiness, there's

room for holier than thou-ness.

There's definitely
factions that don't agree.

There's like, rules as written,
home brew, you know, there's

all, there's all of that.

Alison: Yeah, we're a group
of people who want you to be

here cuz you want to be here.

We don't want to hold you in place.

Um, that is, you're right.

A very important distinction to make
is that I've never, felt like if I

were to come to you and Fitz and Evan
tomorrow and say, I love you guys,

I'm gonna need to pull back from D&D.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: I like, I think that you guys
would be honestly shocked because

of my level of, you know, passion.

But I don't, I don't think
it would be, you know, a, a a

game ender for our friendships.

Right?

And I get that sense of that in
cults that when you, when you leave,

you have to break away entirely.

There's no, let's just be
friends after this relationship.

It's either all in or all out.

So in that way, I would say D&D is very
not culty because we're very much a come

as you are, stay as long as you like.

And you know, with cults you tend to think
there's, there can be one leader, right?

There has to be this hierarchy.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alison: I don't feel that way about D&D.

Like, I think, you know, you love being
a GM and are gifted at it, but I, I

think anytime that I have showed any kind
of interest, you have been nothing but

supportive and never no, this is my game.

Sit down, peon, or anything like that.

Matt: "Sit down peon."

Alison: Things that Matt,
you know, would never say.

It's just, it was interesting
though to hear you talk about,

your early experience with cults.

Right.

I was talking with a group of friends
last week and one of them was telling

me about some Hulu documentary that
they had watched on a cult that had

preyed on young women in college.

And as they're telling me the story
and as they're telling me about

what this cult leader did, to
prey upon these young women.

I, I was struck with the realization that
like, at the wrong place and time, that

could have been me, there was a, a prior
version of Alison that needed that love

bombing and all of those different things.

And I'm like, I'm really glad that
I was never in that situation cuz I

I probably would've fallen for it.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Right?

Because somebody would've been
loving me and giving me something.

And It's kind of like narcissists
where they make you feel, you know,

and we've talked about even with
us, like making people feel seen

and heard and stuff like that, but
that could also be used as a really

dangerous instrument of manipulation.

Um, so it's interesting to hear about
you, you know, like I had this sliding

doors moment when you were telling, I'm
like, but Matt, you, you know, started

out playing, you know, tin whistle
and pan flute and all of these things.

What if you had been in the subway
that day instead of Christopher?

Would that have, it doesn't sound like it,
but I'm here saying, oh, if I had been in

the wrong place at the wrong time, this
podcast would not exist because I would

be too busy living in a cult somewhere.

Matt: That's interesting
that you say that.

That's real talk, because...

I, I could see that about you,
but I have to say, that would

definitely be young Alison.

Like, I don't, I don't,
I wouldn't see that now.

I definitely would not see that now.

And the people that I've known, there
is something in them that needs it, that

needs it real bad, whatever it is that...

Okay, here's, here's what I've
thought is the difference.

And this is just my own opinion.

But in my mind, the people who are
really, really susceptible to joining

cults are ones that do not enjoy the
process of thinking for themselves.

Alison: Hmm.

Matt: Of being for themselves.

I'm not saying that they don't have
thoughts, and I'm definitely not

saying they're not intelligent.

Christopher was very intelligent, but
there was always a, a need for him to

join so that he could just have it go.

You know, before the cult, he either
wanted to be a monk or be in a band.

Honestly, both of those
pretty culty, I will admit.

Because the band is a secular group.

You have to depend on each other.

You have to do things.

Except, the difference is you
know, it's a very small group.

Not everybody can join, but I think
that the, the people who are really

drawn are, are the people who have a
harder time thinking for themselves.

And I don't think, think
of you as that way.

Alison: Okay, so let me Yes, and that.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: With this.

I think that there comes a time
in everybody's life when you

realize, nobody's coming for me.

Nobody's coming to save me.

Matt: Mm.

Alison: I gotta do this myself.

And I think that that's when your
life truly begins is when you have

that moment of I and I alone am
responsible for my own happiness.

Right?

So put another way, it's not that
somebody is requiring someone else to

think for them, but it does suggest to
me that they are in a thought pattern

of I'm relying on outside forces to
fulfill me, to make me happy, to drive me

Matt: Yeah,

Alison: is how I would,
I would look at that.

Matt: That's better.

Yeah.

Let's not bring intelligence into it.

Alison: Yeah, exactly.

Prior versions of Alison definitely
relied heavily on outside stimuli.

Is that, is it stimuluses
stimulusi, stimuli?

Matt: Hmm.

Alison: Anywho?

I,

Yeah, Younger versions of myself
wanted to be, I want you to feed

me, I want you to entertain me.

I want you to provide me my happiness.

40 year old Alison understands nobody
but me is responsible for that.

Not my partner, not my friends.

You know, nothing.

Matt: I mean, you're still a fan.

You are still exceedingly good
at being a fan of things like.

But, but it's different.

There is a level of, of scariness and
again, I'm talking about when I saw

my friend go, Hmm, no, I'm making this
decision you are not a part of it.

I'm giving away all of my things.

That is, that's not just being a fan.

That is, that is what
you're talking about.

That is like a, I'm going to
dive off a cliff and these

people are going to catch me.

Yeah.

Alison: Well, and it's the,
it's the separation point.

I think that is maybe the defining
crux of, is it a cult or isn't it.

A, a fandom, if we wanna use that word, is
people who enjoy and share the same things

and are still encouraged to go about
their lives with their normal day to days

and have other loves and other fandoms.

Whereas cults seem to be, I
own you, you only belong to me.

You must dissociate with everything
that you were previously and level up.

so, my wheels are now turning as
to how we can bring all things

ADHD back to all things RPGs.

What classes of D&D are most
likely to become members of a cult?

Obviously Paladin, obviously Monk.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

. Yes.

Clerics.

I would even go as...

Alison: about say or, or warlocks.

You know, if you are given
your powers by a higher power

Matt: Yes.

Is your higher power that
that beautiful leader, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Alison: The culty culty culty leader

Matt: Ooh, And, and then the
second question is what classes

would be the cult leader?

And that would definitely
be Warlock, right?

That would definitely
be clerics and warlocks.

Alison: Yeah.

I would see it as clerics first.

Matt: Yeah, clerics first.

Cuz they're

Alison: Paladins be cultists.

Matt: Yes.

Mm-hmm.

. Monks are Cultists part of the fandom?

They're part of the, yeah.

Yeah.

They're,

Alison: they're,

part of

Matt: yeah.

Alison: Are we bad people, Matt?

Matt: I don't know.

I knew this was gonna be a touchy subject.

I, I tried to warn you, like, I don't
know if I have a f a fully formulated

concept of this, but I like where
we've gotten to though, because, I

think we've made points that prove that
Dungeons and Dragons is not a cult.

That it's way too big.

It's way too broad.

Especially if you open it up,
to role playing games, then

it's like endlessly large.

It is, it is definitely something that
you can fall prey to intense fandom for,

like us, you could definitely do that.

Alison: I think though that this has
been a really important discussion

for us to have of, reminding ourselves
and hopefully any listeners, that

not every fanatical group is a cult.

Matt: Yeah.

Yes.

Alison: So we learned something
through doing this that we, you know,

can be kinder and gentler with our
words and our labeling of things.

Cuz I think anytime it's something
that you don't understand, it's

just like people saying like, oh,
Alison is all about manifestation

and spiritual shit now, she's woowoo.

Well, not really like, but
you don't understand it.

And so instead of taking the time
to get to know what's actually going

on and making assumptions about what
I do and don't believe, you know,

you're just gonna label it as Alison's
being fanatical about something.

Not you by the way.

And certainly not any listeners,
but people in my life.

Matt: Right?

Alison: Continue to do that.

Matt: I'm sorry.

Alison: To, clarify, I'm
using you very broadly here.

Matt: But yeah, I, I think it is
the broadness, it, it does have

to do with the, extent that it
has permeated culture, right?

So we know that meditation and yoga, it
is proven scientifically that those things

are good for human beings like, Was there
a time where no one would have done that

in the United States of America, and
they would've called it woo woo, and it

would've made more people uncomfortable.

I am sure.

Sure.

But now it's just too broad.

Christianity's way too broad to be a cult.

And it was very important for me when I
lost Christopher, to come to that in my

twenties, that cult is not a bad word,
it's not inherently bad, it is just, uh,

you know, it just has some parameters
attached that, sure could be dangerous in

the hands of any charismatic leader, but.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Let's focus on the good
things and the good outcomes.

And if, you find yourself in a
group, let's say you are someone who

has not played Dungeons & Dragons.

Maybe you are listening to this podcast.

Maybe you're like, God,
I really want to try it.

And then you, you find a group and
it feels weird and you don't like it.

You don't like them, and they're
saying things you don't like and they

don't have any X cards for safety.

And you, you just genuinely
feel it's creep town.

You've entered creep town.

You can get out, you come play with us.

And we're not creepy.

I don't think.

I don't think I'm creepy.

I mean, I, I can be creepy
sometimes, but not, not like that.

Alison: You?

Never.

There are ghosts next door, Alison

Matt: There's a ghost next door, Alison.

Alison: I think this is a really
good time to remind everybody though

that like anything else, you should
take things for a spin before...

In dating, in friendship, and find, you
know, one of my friends was, uh, going

to therapy for the first time in their
and I had to tell them it is okay if you

do not click with your first therapist.

It is okay if you do not click with
your first three therapists, like

give it a session or two cuz you
know, the whole getting to know

you thing can be awkward, but you
should click with who you're working

with on that personal level, level.

Same thing with your D&D group.

So if it's not clicking, there are
other offerings out there and it

is okay to test drive hairstylists,
therapists, cars, D&D, you know,

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: We tend to Look at every move
we make as potentially permanent and

like with very few exceptions, like
for, I don't know, having kids or dying.

Most decisions that we make day to day.

Not permanent.

So you can get a new job,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: You know, A new
lawn guy, a new cult.

Matt: Yeah, Anytime you want.

You have our permission.

Your cult leaders give you permission.

Alison: Brought it right
back around, didn't we?

Matt: We sure did.

Alison: We rolled high on the charisma.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: We did.

We did.

We're pretty glad.

Alison, thank you for
being on, on my podcast.

Alison: Whoa,

Matt: Creepy.

Thank you for listening and being
a part of our ADHd20 and larger

Bivins Brothers Creative community.

If you're looking for more,
we have a hoppin' Discord that

a couple of us affectionately
call the Honeycomb Kill Room.

Look for the join link in the show notes.

Alison: We talk about all kinds of
things, TTRPGs and ADHD for sure,

but also TV, comics, video games,
movies, theater, our pets, and

really anything else on our minds.

Come be nerds with us and all our friends.

Matt: We also have a Patreon

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Alison: For just $2 a month, you
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By supporting our Patreon, you are helping
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Matt: The best way you can help us
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Alison: Thank you for being a pal, to
us as people, to ADHd20 the Podcast,

and to the Greater Bivins Brothers
Creative Commonwealth of Nerds.