ADHd20 s02e07: Olive How You've Leveled Up
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Matt: [00:00:00] What if I just hit the old record button?

Alison: I don't know. Matt, what if you did that?

Matt: Hey-ho!

Alison: No disrespect, but it's awfully quiet in here, with just the two of us.

Matt: I know, I know. We've had so much fun having g-g-g guests and we have so many fun ones lined up, but,

are you, are you, are you bored with me?

Alison: No, not at all.

Matt: Are you just bored with me?

Alison: I love our, uh, our just us time. It's just, it's

you, you know how I am, you know how I am a creature of habit and I felt like we got into a sync and a rhythm and now we're switching it up. And I love that switching it up this season means the Matt and AK Duo.

Matt: As opposed to the other one, which was one guest in the first season. Yeah.

Alison: It's exactly what we said we wanted though. We wanted a community, we wanted more people to talk to, and everybody is. We got y'all crawling out of the woodwork to talk to us. We [00:01:00] get it. We're popular. We're very popular.

Matt: Popular.

Um,

Alison: I don't know you know this, but you know, neuro spiciness is so hot right now.

Matt: So hot right now. Uh, yeah. That's why we kind of thought we would talk about that today is just, uh, neuro spiciness and, and how, you know, when it rains, it pours.

All of our friends children are being diagnosed with ADHD, which is an amazing thing. And we've talked many times, how, how envious of kids we are.

But the flip side of that is all the parents are then going, okay, so wait, if my kid has ADHD, where did it come from?

Alison: Or oh, record scratch moment happening in a lot of lives. Or they are walking with their children through the diagnosis for ADHD, autism [00:02:00] and a thousand other spectrum disorders, and they're reading the questions and they're going, oh my God. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Uh, I had dinner with some friends from college last weekend, and that's exactly what they, like several of my friends said was going on with them.

To which I say, good on ya. Thank you. Thank you for being a proactive parent and helping your kid. Instead of those of us Gen Xers and elder millennials who were told to toughen up.

Matt: Yep. Tough it up. Get, get back in the corner, kid and shut your mouth.

Alison: Nobody ever said that to either of us.

Matt: No one that.

Alison: Just a quick little disclaimer

Matt: It just sounds cool.

Alison: I'll just go ahead and blanket statement. We understand that every generation of parent does the best they can and their children think they really beeped stuff up...

Matt: mm-hmm.

Alison: ...until the next generation comes.

And that generation that swore they were gonna do better and they were gonna be nothing like their parents are probably exactly like their parents.[00:03:00] Cuz man, raising kids is hard. I say as non-parent. So we salute you parents.

Matt: Yes. Trust. Trust us. We're watching you, friends who are parents. We don't understand your pain fully, but we see it and

Alison: We see you.

Matt: We see you. We do.

Alison: We see you.

So I've been thinking about this specifically through the lens of, you know, on our last episode we had our, our guest, our Lorekeeper Fitz. Ah. And so the question came up about if you didn't have ADHD in our case, like if you could give it back, would you?

Matt: Right. Yeah. That was cool.

Alison: And I, I've been thinking about that a lot of, would I give it back or would I have wanted to be diagnosed with it earlier to start to learn some of the coping mechanisms.

That I now have in my forties.

Matt: Yes. Yes. And then, just this week during [00:04:00] our, uh, Bivins Brothers Creative meeting, you gave, uh, an incredible example of how how our brains work as opposed to how my brother's brain works. And what goes through our heads when we have something as simple as a doctor's appointment during the day.

And how, and it was really cool, I have been talking about this a lot, just how, in our before diagnosis, we would see an hour long doctor's appointment as an hour long doctor's appointment. But because we have to build tools because of all the failure that, that of course, uh, creates in our life.

Of course, it isn't just an hour. It's a, it's a half hour to get there. It's a half hour to get back. It's, it's a half hour to prep for that. It's all, it's all the things that we don't, we don't have that. Right. But we have learned that. And it was fun to see to hear my brother go, oh, yeah, yeah, [00:05:00] yeah.

You just factored those things in. But to us, we have to do it every time. And that's an example of, uh, leveling up. And, and so you, you suggested that the topic today be leveling up with ADHD and I love it.

Alison: Have we? Will we?

Matt: Have we, will we?

Alison: Let us discuss? But first, shall we roll some little math clickety clacks?

Matt: Yes.

Alison: Ka-ka-ka-kow!.

Instant dopamine rush.

Matt: What did you get?

Alison: I got three.

Matt: Wow.

Three.

Alison: Number three.

Matt: Alison, what is your favorite D&D class to play and why?

Alison: Oh, so hard cuz I love so many of them. I, I will say that I tend to go Sorcerer because as we've talked about many, many, many [00:06:00] times, I like to be a magic caster for the most part. Although, I will admit, and Fitz pointed this out to me last night, that I've been really leaning in some martial classes lately, except for I tend to choose subclasses that have some kind of magic something.

I just love me some wild magic man.

Matt: Yes. Wow. I love that

Alison: Do I? I wanna do I get to spoil people. Matt and I rolled up some new characters to introduce you guys to the magic that is Dungeons & Dragons.

Matt: I know.

Alison: Spoiler alert, I play a Sorcerer in it.

Matt: You play a Sorcerer and you know. Exactly. Um, you know, one thing I forgot to do, of course, because, I don't know whether I've ever, I've ever told you this, but, uh, uh, I have ADHD.

Alison: What?

Matt: Bum, boom, boom.

Alison: We should start a podcast about it. Hey Matt, do you wanna be on my podcast about ADHD?

Matt: I would love to, cuz there's so many things I feel like I could learn about myself if I could, if I could just [00:07:00] talk to someone about, anyway. The reason that we are, we are now talking about ADHD, but we're also talking about Dungeons & Dragons, is that ADHD is a podcast that tries to find the intersection between, ADHD and

Alison: TT RPGs.

Matt: Love it.

Alison: We did it right that time.

Matt: And I, I, rolled in 97.

Alison: A 90-WHOA! So I got three from the bottom and you got three from the top. Synchronicities man. What is your in-game note taking style?

Matt: Oh!

Alison: Chaos.

Matt: Chaos. Well, okay. That's, that is such a topic that I think we still, I, I feel like we've done a podcast about, we could still do another one, but, uh, my in-game note taking style is definitely chaotic. I am typically the Game Master, so I'm already juggling a ton [00:08:00] of balls, plates, machetes, chainsaws. So

Alison: Every one of them.

Matt: They're all flaming everything.

Even the chainsaws on fire. God. God. That's terrifying. Uh, I'm already juggling a bunch of stuff. Uh, so when I am, when I am game mastering, I'm not great at taking notes, which is why I am so, so lucky to have at least two incredible lore keepers.

Our friend Matt Williams, who I truly don't know how he does what he does. I, He doesn't even look like he's taking notes. It doesn't even look like he is distracted by, it's just some magical thing that he's doing and, and at a he'll spit back all this lore that I've made up off the top of my head.

So, and then of course, our official lore keeper, uh, of this podcast is Fitz. And so I have to admit that when I'm game mastering I [00:09:00] do, I do tend to rely on them, which is a lazy habit of mine that I should probably change. At Gary Con, I was trying to be as non-digital as possible and I had this cool little book that my mama gave me for Christmas and a pen. Yeah. And I was just, I was just writing and I was I was really trying to be in the moment and not write too much. Um, but one thing about a lot of people who have ADHD is that a lot of times taking notes and or doodling is a way to

Alison: Help focus.

Matt: Focus and listening, which is a little known fact, but it, it has always been the case for me.

So I will, uh, whether it is, on a, on an iPad or, or with a pen and paper, I am kind of hitting the highlights of what is happening simply so I can reference names and stuff. And I just kind of hope for the best.

Alison: My toxic trait is that whether I am DMing [00:10:00] or playing, I just don't take notes and I rely on everybody else.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: So with that said, wanna talk about what we wanna talk about?

Matt: Let's talk about what we wanna talk about,

Alison: Which is leveling up with ADHD.

What does that

Matt: Leveling up with ADHD. What does that mean?

it, Probably means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. What does it mean to you, Alison?

Alison: Well, it's interesting, so I'm preparing to run, uh, a one shot for our lovely Patrons soon, and playing in this one shot is my friend Sam, who has never played an ounce of D&D before. And so earlier today I was taking her through the character sheet and one of the questions she had was around leveling up with experience points XP or milestone? Um, so when you ask the question like, what does it mean to you? Like, so experience points means you're doing things, tasks, you know, fighting evil along the way, and you're literally being rewarded, which is something we've talked about is it's, it's the dopamining, [00:11:00] right?

It's the rewarding your brain for doing the thing, you know, that you have to do. And that's one way to level up. Uh, so you get into that flow state with the, the, the dopamine boosts, or there are milestones that you hit that like, once I am earning this amount of money I've leveled up in my career, or once I, you know, my house is consistently clean, I've le leveled up in my, you know, plight against clutter.

Uh, so it's, it's reaching whatever that peak is, on a really consistent basis.

I think. What about you?

Matt: Yes. Um, I was a little distracted while you were talking because again, with the synchronicity, right before I called you up today, I was going as, as I have been for a while, kind of refining this concept of an RPG methodology.

Alison: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Matt: That I've talked about before. And I, I've been really focused on context switching [00:12:00] and I, I'm just trying to find the right terms that will, entice me, make me excited about doing things, you know, and, and as you said that, I was like, yes, the difference between XP like gaining XP, which is in Dungeons & Dragons, at least it's, it's points.

So, like you said, uh, killing a monster gives you XP but we don't play that way.

We play with, like you said, the milestone, system, which is you get from A to B, you level up, you get from B to C. Ya level up. Ya get from C to D, YA LEVEL UP!

Alison: Did we just, did we our ADHD theme song?

Ya Level Up!

Matt: Ya Level Up! Yes, did it.

Alison: That's been on the to-do list episode one?

Matt: The list. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, yeah. So that's the way we play [00:13:00] and mostly because it's easier for me, probably. I don't know. I just have never, I've never thought of that, but it has been hard for me to say, okay, look, there's a difference between my personal growth, my personal life growth, meaning doing this podcast with you.

The things that I feel are, are important to my soul. There's a difference between that and the client work. My, my, the things that I have to do. I want to do them, but they are more, this is allowing me to live my life. Food on the table, brings money in the bank, so on and so forth. And then there's of course, just basic upkeep, like going to the doctor, calling your mom, eating grits or whatever you would give XP for, right? Like you, those are experiences and you, you get rewarded for doing them. But the milestones versus the just day-to-day XP.

So I [00:14:00] wrote that down while you were saying that. I was like, that's the word I want, milestone is an exciting thing. In my mind, going back to your actual question, uh, the examples of leveling up for me have been the days before I knew I had ADHD and I would always, always be late. And then I learned that, I have to be aware that I, because of time blindness, I cannot, I cannot compute time properly. I do not see it correctly.

We talk a lot about how you and I have to go to the airport early because we've, we got sick of the panic that we felt when we were late and we were running around and we hated ourselves. Like we, that is a level up. Another level up for me is it's a constant struggle, but my, attempts to try to weed out the distractions that constantly call to me all the time where I say [00:15:00] no to things where I don't let other people derail a conversation because I, I want to derail it myself. And so if I have any kind of assistance for that, oh boy.

So my ability to say, I really wanna do that right now, but I've gotta finish what I'm doing right now before I get to the thing I really want to do that my just struggle to do that. I have made strides in that.

You know, it's funny because there are some things that in some ways I feel like leveling up for me is also accepting.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: For me, you know, especially before diagnosis, there was a lot of violence towards me, right?

Me on me violence,

Because I was like, what the living bleep.

Why can't I bleeeeep! You know? Uh, and, and so one of the biggest things is that's just the way it is, dude. I'm so, so sorry. You are, it's not gonna [00:16:00] change.

Alison: You know, it's interesting that you say that, and I agree for you, but I think one of my big biggest leveling ups is my fairly newfound willingness to change.

I think that was 20 years ago Alison's problem is she was very, this is how I am. Take it or leave it, I'm also gonna be really mean to you about it. Whereas like now I'm trying, I'm trying really hard to adopt a new, like softness, be a little bit more like heart-centered about it and be open.

So

Matt: Yes. No, it it, That's interesting that you say that, that would be one of the main things for you because I can't stop doing new things. you are far, far less stubborn about new things than you were just a few months ago.

We had an experience recently where we took you to one of our favorite restaurants. We ordered one of our favorite pizzas that you had turned down a couple of years ago because [00:17:00] you do not like onions. But we said, trust us, man. Take a chance. And I think you liked

it.

I think you liked the pizza.

Alison: Hot Dougs!

Matt: Such good freaking pizza. Hot Dougs.

Alison: looked at, Matt mouthful of pizza covered in onions. I, onions for me, they're, uh, uh, they're a flavoring. You put them in things. They're not the main event. I do not love onions, but I'm, you know, I need to not dislike so many things. I think that's where a lot of my leveling up comes from. It's the good, hard look at myself and the things I don't like that I choose to change. Based on the things I don't like about other people that I wish I could change.

Matt: Interesting.

Alison: So like, when it comes to food, growing up I was the world's pickiest eater. I only wanted mac and cheese, basically. Like, that's it. I, that's all I wanted to eat all the time. Um, and part of that was in like, [00:18:00] the way that food was prepared growing up in the eighties and nineties in Alabama, it was a textural thing.

So I was, I was being fed a lot of very mushy, over salted. That doesn't mean I don't like vegetables. It means I like roasted or raw vegetables, you know, but like, we didn't, we didn't figure that out until late in the game. But man, sometimes it's just a freaking bummer to go out to a meal with somebody and have them hate everything. I, I don't like that behavior. Now, dietary restrictions do not count here. I understand that there are some things, yeah, people cannot eat. But one of my greatest joys, and I get into fights with my friends about this, I, I think there's two kinds of people in this world. There are food share-ers and there are, Joey doesn't share food, you know, and I have friends who are both, and I love to be a food share-er, so Joey doesn't share food.

But when you have that one friend who's like, I will only eat yellow foods. I will eat pasta and cheese. It's frustrating.

It's annoying. Sorry. Friends who are picky eaters who are hearing this revealed on the [00:19:00] podcast. And so I made a conscious decision to not be that girl, to be a joy to go out to eat meals with, because I want to be adventurous and try things and be delighted. and what's on everybody's plates.

Matt: But a another wonderful new thing about you is, your burgeoning woowoo side and what would Woowoo Alison say about that? Would you then say, it's not the things that you don't like about yourself, it's the things that you want to grow into, things that you want

Alison: You have been listening!

Matt: A good 60 to 40% of the time, Alison, I listen. Um,

But no. Yes. I mean, how do, how do we rephrase that in, in, in, not critique, but like growth and how do we, how do we rephrase it in a way that's we're not beating ourselves up, right?

Alison: Yes.

I kind of did that and, and so good on you for, for calling it out and, and, and framing it correctly. Woo. Well, Matthew woo woo, [00:20:00] ideology says that all you have to do is focus on what you want. And not what you don't have. Focus on what you want. So this is me saying I want to be a joy to go to restaurants with.

I want to be a joy to be around. I want to be someone that my friends know that they can call on to go get into some shenanigans. My leveling up is all about focusing on the person that I most want to be.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: Woowoo.

My latest has been, I want to be the kind of person who, when her friends want to come over to her house, she says yes and doesn't go into a panic of shoving things under the bed. That's been my leveling up of late and what has kind of kicked me into the whole, what if we just like kept things a little tidier all along, rather than waiting for like a once a month or maybe longer than that... because I'm always, I'm always catching up.

I'm always behind the [00:21:00] eight ball. And so, you know, I think where I am right now is how do I get ahead of the things that I want?

Matt: That's beautiful because, uh, we can kind of talk about that in ADHD and how, I'm sure this is not a across the board, but I would, I would wager that a high percentage of people with ADHD brains are, at least cluttered, if not messy or disgusting.

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I, I think there's definitely a difference.

I live in the clean clutter mode. Uh, then, you know, I'm not disgusting. It's not like food is left everywhere and plates and.

Alison: Yep.

Matt: Not anymore. I was just say that. Not anymore. Um, so those days are gone. Thank, thankfully leveling up. Thank you. Uh, but it is, you know, it's, it's, it's difficult because, and my coach just talked about this today, how, if something isn't defined, there's so much gray area.

Like at least my brain [00:22:00] has the desire for a sharp edge definition. Meaning this thing has to go here or it's on the floor.

Period. if, if there is not a bucket and if that bucket, that bucket also has to be, relatively unfilled, right? So this thing has to go in this bucket or it's on the floor because the gray area, the middle, the middle ground is so cavernous, right?

Alison: And, um, another one as we talk about leveling up from, uh, KC Davis, Domestic Blisters is the nightly reset. And I've talked about this, uh, with you and Evan recently, where I've, I've, the reframing that I need is, how can I be good to tomorrow, Alison,

because apparently I don't care about today Alison.

But I think that that's important. I think like, honestly, like it's only crazy if it doesn't work, right? [00:23:00] And I'm being a little bit cavalier when I, I obviously care about today, Alison, but like, when I do something now, I'm like, think about how happy I'm gonna be tomorrow when I wake up and my room is sparkling.

Think about how wonderful it's going to be when I'm not feeling stressed next week because I actually got my work done this week and so I'm now constantly looking at how can I be good to future state.

So, okay, so this, I'm gonna kind of switch gears, but kind of not, cuz I have a genuine question about leveling up for you as a Dungeon Master. See, we got it. We gotta crossover into D&D now.

Matt: Oh, yes.

Alison: that I think applies to this, if we start talking about like future versions of ourselves and how we can be good to them.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: Do you know, when we talk about milestones for leveling up in D&D, do you have, like, after they fight this person or find this artifact or do this thing, they're going to level up? Or is it just much more like you look at the thing that we [00:24:00] just went through and say, wow, they, they went through a lot.

I'm gonna reward them with a level up. Do you pre-plan or do, is it more on the fly?

Matt: It it depends. I think it, there's certain, times that, it is sort of, decreed almost that it seems like it, it absolutely should. And then yes, there, there are times where like, oh, right, right. I haven't, I haven't leveled anyone up yet. They've done a whole lot of stuff. this should be a milestone.

That makes sense.

Alison: Does. Yeah. I just wonder that about that within the context of like, milestone leveling up in our own lives. Like we know all of the, the, normal ones, right. You know, like getting

married and having kids and like, you know, like the big things that society has deemed milestone, advancement worthy.

And some of those things just aren't gonna apply to us. And I don't, I don't wanna be defined by some of those things, or I'm just, I like, you know, the jigs up. I'm not gonna have kids. So that's, uh, if, if I have to wait to have kids to level up, then I guess I'm stuck here forever. That doesn't [00:25:00] seem fair.

Um, so, you know, I think about that as like, Kind of tying this all back together, like understanding now that the things I'm doing today are for tomorrow Alison. So are we pre-planning our milestones or will we just know when we've hit them that we've leveled up? You know, I guess a milestone is kind of like a goal, but to your point, sometimes cool stuff happens on, and, and I think that was kind of the spirit to which I brought into this episode thinking like, Hey, Matt and I have really leveled up lately.

Like, I'm so freaking proud of us.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Seriously.

Alison: I don't know. It's like, I guess there's this part of my brain that's, I'm like, how do we replicate this? How do we keep. motivated and keep that carrot dangling down the line so we keep wanting to level up cuz it's kind of cool.

Matt: I think it is similar though, to the game because let's say an adventuring party, it comes to a crossroads and they can either go into a spooky, decrepit, windmill. They could go [00:26:00] into this scary windmill, right? Uh, or they could have a baby, or,

Alison: What if those are both not good options, my dude?

Matt: I, I was gonna say, or they could keep going to the new city where they could depose a dictator that, is in control of that city by setting the entire city on fire. Right? Those are three options in, in my mind.

Probably, there would be leveling up for each of those options. I'm not saying that they're on the same level. But, they are relatively worthy of leveling up, right?

Alison: Although it's interesting to think about, right? Because if, you know, what we know of time both in game and IRL is that it is not linear. And so in [00:27:00] our Barovia game that you've heard us mention before, Matt had this encounter all planned for us. I mean, when we talk about dangling a carrot, there was a gigantic neon sign pointing us to this

Matt: Yes. Just on the verge of railroading.

Alison: Yep. And I don't even know how we justified, I don't even remember. But first, for whatever reason, the party got to where our lovely DM was, you know, pointing us to, I will not use the phrase railroading. Um, and we said, "Nah!"

Matt: Yeah. Looks scary. I don't want to go in there

but

Alison: Yeah. Yeah. It was not giving a good vibe. We all rolled real high on Perception and that was that.

But okay. Had we reached and gone through whatever horrors awaited us at that time, which was back at like, I don't know, probably level seven or eight and hopefully, you know, had defeated them, we leveled up, but now we're what level 10 or [00:28:00] 11

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: If we go back to that, you know, it's not gonna be the same encounter now and, and might not be worthy of a level up, which is the whole point of leveling up that the things that were once hard for you are no longer hard for you because you leveled up!

Matt: Well, exactly. The XP becomes relative to everything and then the milestones probably fewer and farther between. And so, Hmm, interesting. So does the Dungeon Master in that case then level up the windmill?

Alison: Have they not blindly, have they leveled up? Have they been through experiences and gained milestones and loved and lost and.

Matt: Which is wow. Which is exactly what you are going through because you are, you are currently in a, in a very open space where, let's say you would go to that windmill right now. You did not want to go. You [00:29:00] were like, Uhuh nasty. I am not going into that. So you, you did not go into the windmill then.

Uh, and that was the right choice for you at the time, but maybe now you're like, I'm gonna try, I'm going to eat olives until I like olives. I'm gonna find the olive that is going to be tolerable. I'm not saying it's not gonna be hard, But have olives have olives themselves leveled up? I think they might have for the good. Like I bet you in this artisanal world that we live in, there is a beautiful olive that has your name on it that you will eat and go, that's Oh delicious.

You know, that's, that's a level up, because yes, in the past, olives came black in a can or green and red in a jar. That's what olives were. If you did not live in New York City or Europe, right. Like that's what olives were. Similarly, whatever is in that windmill

Alison: [00:30:00] Yep.

Matt: Either has become better or worse. You'll, you won't know until you, I'm not gonna meta game this during a podcast.

Alison: It, we, we keep using vegetable analogies, but like I, I, I, maintain

They're

Matt: Your only hangup. Your only hangup is vegetables.

Alison: It's

Matt: That's it. Nothing else.

Alison: And murder. No. Um, but that was, it's not that I didn't like asparagus, green beans and brussels sprouts, which is like 90% of my diet now. Then I, it was just, I didn't, they hadn't leveled up. They were mushy and in a can and I was not down for that.

Interesting. Interesting. The vegetables have leveled up. The people have leveled up, the characters have leveled up. The world has leveled up.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: I love all this really, really hard.

Matt: Me too. Me too. I didn't, I didn't know that we were going to go here, but that's, that's the fun.

Alison: I never know where we're gonna go.

Matt: I either.

Alison: So here. Okay, here's another way that I've leveled up. [00:31:00] I used to have nonstop conversations with other people running in my head. I, I had loving conversations with other people running in my head. I had fights with other people. I had neutral conversa...

always. There was just a script going.

I finally learned, I'm just, now, I'm just coming to this realization right here, live on the podcast. I did not realize that I don't do this anymore. Because it's a waste of time because I have no idea what you're gonna do. So why would I try having a conversation with you in my head when you are an X-factor and always will be anybody other than me.

I don't know what they're gonna do. Whoa, damn. Holy crap. I just do. You know, like when you haven't done something in so long and so like you don't miss it anymore and then you think about it? That's what just happened to me. But to your point, I didn't know what this was gonna be about and I was okay with that.

I was okay to say, Matt and I are gonna turn on our microphones and we're gonna chitter chatter about ADHD and [00:32:00] D&D, and then we're gonna make it into a

Matt: And then we're gonna release that we're gonna invite other people to listen to the process.

Alison: Wild. The security, I mean, and, and I think that's what past versions of myself, that was the real, it was the insecurity, right? So I had try and control the room and, and control what I thought you were gonna do so I could control how I was gonna react. And like all, it's all insecurity, man.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: Ah, wild.

Matt: I don't know whether this fits or not, but I'm gonna throw it in there but, um, one of the, one of the things I have been really super focused on, uh, since Gary Con is, you and Fitz sitting me down and saying, I don't think you're a bard, Matt, I think a warlock. That has really affected me in ways that I just did not expect. And your reasoning was, both of you said, because I do things that are surprising and seem to come from [00:33:00] somewhere else.

Hmm.

And I, if I really think about it, what was I holding onto a concept of being a bard? It was really a slightly negative thing, which was being a jack of all trades, master of nothing.

And in my mind I love that, but it's also a slight slight on me,

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: But a patron. Being a warlock and having a patron, something that's outside me, that is kind of like, Ooh, I'm going to create the chaos. I'm gonna give you the power to do something. It kind of softens. That blow of me having to do it right?

Like, to say, okay, so the chaos is the chaos. The chaos is the ADHD, the chaos is embraceable. It's also something to be furious at sometimes, but, that has really been interesting to me as far as like, I kind of consider that as level up, [00:34:00] but does that mean that I'm multi classing?

Which is, Or, or that I've always been a warlock and I thought that I was a bard. I don't know. But that, that feels like a level up to me to say, dude, just let it go, man. You know, just like let it, let the chaos reign. and then, and then just allow it, Um, interesting.

Alison: I love that. I would argue for both of us that we didn't multi-class, that realizing who we are now is who we were always meant to be.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: is the level up. So in the same way that I have to release the notion, I don't even know what I, what I would've branded myself as. I, I think I always would cling to sorcerer. Full circle back in the beginning of the episode now,

because I love that wild magic because I, I love to be a chaos gremlin.

And I think that was a slight on myself saying that I was getting my power from something random, [00:35:00] from something intangible, you know? And that I didn't know how to control it. And, and so the evolution of me to paladin doesn't mean that I was a sorcerer. It means that I was a paladin all along. I just didn't know how to tap into my passion and my spark and, you know, the, the what, the fandom aspect of me as you put it.

Matt: yes, it is fandom. Sure. But it's, it's, you are also our greatest champion. You champion us, you champion these things that we share. That's the whole thing about the paladins that you are, you are, yes, you are devout about the thing, which is the fandom part.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: You are also devout about us and you champion your friends and you, you are there for them. And you're like, come on guys, we can, that's your sound of your horse.

Alison: Unicorn.

Matt: I don't know why it sounds like that. Yes, unicorn. Sorry. Yes.

Alison: But wouldn't you argue that I, I wasn't actually a sorcerer. I was, and I would say the same thing right back at you about warlock is that [00:36:00] like we were trying to put ourselves into these, you know, places that we didn't quite fit, cuz they were the closest to our approximation of ourselves.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Alison: The level up is saying, no, this is what I

am, this

is what I'm capable of.

Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: In D&D, when you build a character, you choose your race, you choose your class, you choose your subclass, you also choose a background, and I think you were mistaking your performer background for your entire personality.

Matt: And that is exactly what I wrote down right before we talked today, the difference between background and class. The passion. Like how, what are my life things? You know, my, my personal life, my, my career life.

But that's, that's the difference. one is my like training, and that's having clients and, and learning about code, and working together on that stuff. that is my background. But what, what is this that we're doing right now [00:37:00] that's more

Alison: Magic.

Matt: Magic? Yeah, that's, that's the fun. That's the leveling up. That's the stuff that actually level up. That's the class. That's what you, that's the core, right?

Alison: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Yes. Sometimes

Alison: Well, I love all this.

I had no idea what was coming. We turned those mics on and we got there as per yoozsh.

Matt: As per yoozsh.

Ya level up! I love it.

Alison: Good work us.

Matt: Good job.

Alison: Thanks for being on my podcast.

Matt: Thanks for being on my podcast.

Thank you for listening and being a part of our ADHd20 and larger Bivins Brothers Creative community. If you're looking for more, we have a hoppin Discord that a couple of us affectionately call the Honeycomb Kill Room. Look for the join link in the show notes.

Alison: We talk about all kinds of things: TTRPGs and ADHD for sure, but also tv, comics, video games, movies, theater, our pets, and [00:38:00] really anything else on our minds! Come be nerds with us and all our friends.

Matt: We also have a Patreon!

Every day work on a Bivins Brothers original is senselessly ignored for the sake of billable hours. And those podcasts videos and live streams are crying out for help

Alison: For just $2 a month, you too can be a Bivins Brothers Angel. Ensuring this content is seen and heard By supporting our Patreon you are helping more Bivins Brothers originals like this very podcast see the clear light of day.

Matt: The best way you can help us though is just to share this 'cast with the people you think will like it

Alison: Thank you for being a pal to us as people, to ADHd20 the podcast, and to the Greater Bivins Brothers creative commonwealth of nerds

[00:39:00]