Matt: I wanted to wait until we hit record

AK: Uhoh.

Matt: To say that you've picked
a hum dinger of a topic today.

AK: Hum dinger.

Matt: This is a, what did the kids say?

Bopper.

No, that can't be

AK: It's a bop,

Matt: Yeah.

AK: It's, it's bussing.

No cap

Matt: No caps.

The capacity is incredible.

The capacity for interesting
conversation is endless.

Oh, man.

I, I was not aware of what this
was until you brought it up.

Um, but we will get to that in a minute.

Let me, let me just start off
by saying that Alison Kendrick.

AK: Oh.

Matt: Has a magic power.

AK: Oh.

Matt: And that magic power is, coming
up with engaging things to talk about.

And that includes coming
up with titles of things.

You're, you're a good theme-er,
you're a really good theme captain.

AK: Oh.

Matt: I don't know what that means.

AK: I

Matt: I like it though.

AK: I like it.

I'll be, I'll be the
Theme Captain any day.

Matt: Be be my theme captain.

AK: You know, thing that I am, uh,
supremely proud of us we embark on

season two, episode 12 of ADHd20,
the podcast that tries to find

the intersection between ADHD

Matt: and TTRPGs.

AK: Yes.

That.

Matt: There we go.

AK: Is what a marvelous job
the both of us have done.

I think like finding and
playing to our strengths.

Matt: Mm.

Better and better every time.

Yeah.

Better and better.

AK: It is fun for me
to come up with topics.

It is fun for me to come up with titles.

It is no fun for me to make us look
or sound good or find the exact

cross section of technology to bring
this sweet little podcast into the,

into the eyeballs and ear holes.

Oh, that went weird places of

Matt: Ear hole.

AK: of the ADHd20 Faithful.

Um, and that's where you
do an exceptional job.

And I'm so grateful to you

Matt: I just like it.

AK: But you're so good at it too.

So I'm glad that it sits
where you want to sit.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: And that's,

Matt: Very much.

AK: That does kind of lead us into
what today's topic will be all about.

But!

We're not gonna reveal it yet.

Cause we have a couple, we've
got a couple spots to do.

First of which, Matt, what did you
hyper fixate on in the past week or so?

Matt: Oh gosh, I didn't do my homework.

Do you wanna go first while I think

AK: Um, I, have been delving
into the beautiful, wonderful

world of, um, Adobe Illustrator.

So I'm a Photoshop girly.

I, I have been having fun in
Photoshop doing what I call a

digital decoupage for years now.

I'm not telling you I'm good at it
either, but I, I somewhat understand

what I'm doing in that program.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: Illustrator is

Matt: Totes diff

AK: Uh, it is.

Yeah.

I, I, and it's funny cuz Evan will help
me from time to time and, and he will have

to kind of correct me and be like, I see
why you're doing that cuz that is what you

would do in Photoshop, but don't do that.

Um, and so for a really long time, because
it was new, I just ignored Illustrator,

I just pretended it didn't exist.

But I have been designing a logo,
not taking the easy way out and

leaping into Canva, doing it for real.

And yesterday I, three hours went
by and I, in my head I had been

working for maybe five minutes.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: I think that's a
hyperfixation, isn't it?

Time blindness is not the thing
that I usually suffer from, but I

have been lately, every time I've
been opening up ye olde Illustrator,

Matt: Well, that's fun.

At least it's, it's moving you
forward to something that's helpful

for all of us, so that's good.

yes.

AK: thought of another mini one.

ChatGPT, been very hyper fixated
on what can do for us lately

Matt: Yeah.

All then I'll, I'll give you two
that that are similarly, matched.

Uh, number one, I did a lot of work
on our friend Amy Cox's, um, company's

website, Deep South Entertainment.

I'm not the designer of this team,
so, I, and I don't want to be, I'm

not trying to be hard on myself.

I, I don't need to be, because
we have an incredible designer

and a junior designer as well.

But I, to make it fun for me, I had to go

AK: Uh oh,

Matt: Out of my mind nuts on writing
copy for fake copy for this website,

which should see the light of day.

Yeah.

Uh, I also went down a, an AI based
experience where I combined two images of

Elton John and a Porta John

AK: And the and results!

Matt: That was, that was
part of it, part of the job.

The results were fantastic,

AK: Magical.

Matt: Creepily fantastic.

Oh yes.

AK: Why don't we roll some d100s?

Today's dice.

Gosh, I love this.

These are dice that were given
to me by our, the other Matt in

my life, our good friend Matt
Williams, that you've heard about.

I I love the video format that
we, I now get to show off my dice.

Matt: I'm, I'm using my little gorgeous
wooden dice that I bought at, um,

AK: Those are so cool.

Matt: D and D Dice here
in Chicago, Illinois.

I Good people.

Good dice.

Great dice.

Uh, 57 for me.

What did you roll again?

Sorry.

AK: I hadn't said it yet.

Matt: Oh, okay.

AK: Uh, I rolled a 30

Okay.

This is a good one.

Matt: good.

AK: What D&D class have you
not played, but want to try?

Matt: Barbarian.

AK: Oh,

Matt: I've never played a barbarian.

AK: Well, Matt, you are going to be
playing in a one shot that I will be

DMing in July, with our beautiful patrons.

I would like to openly invite you
to bring a barbarian to that melee.

Matt: Well, perhaps I will.

Wink, wink.

Nod.

Nod.

Alison.

AK: That's me!

Matt: Money and experience
suddenly don't matter.

What is your profession now?

AK: Mm.

I'm gonna say something really corny.

Matt: Go.

AK: I think this might be it.

Matt: Wow.

Wow.

AK: I like, talking into
a mic is really fun.

So if this could be my
full-time gig and money didn't

matter, that'd be pretty cool.

Matt: I think I'm right there with

AK: ya.

Let's do it.

Matt: You.

I think I'm right there with you.

Yeah.

Let's you know, we
don't need those things.

AK: Yeah.

Matt: We don't need those.

We're still doing it, which is one of
the wonderful things about it, but,

AK: Yeah.

Matt: There is no but, that's it.

AK: That's

Matt: So thanks everybody for
listening cuz you are, you

are willing us into existence.

AK: making our dreams come true.

Matt: I mean, we obviously, I mean,
we would still do it without you, but

AK: It's

Matt: You're, it's way more fun with you.

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Love it.

AK: I do.

All right.

Well that, was fun.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: I feel like we need some like
ringing bells to unveil today's topic.

So this is one, this is a tenet is the
word that we typically use, symptom, side

effect, of ADHD that caught my attention
back when I first got my diagnosis.

Definitely since we've been doing this
podcast, um, that I've been very curious

about, like what it means and how I
apply it, but I didn't know much about

it and then I started reading about it.

And the reason, the reason that I brought
this up as today's topic is because on

Sunday, in lieu of our regular Barovia
game, we were lucky enough to have our

good friend Tey insert sound effect,

Matt: What?

AK: Hey.

Matt: We got it under control
now it's under control.

And a two and a three, and a four and a.

There

AK: We know what to expect now,
and you know how to stop it.

So

Matt: Thank God.

AK: Preparation is key.

Preparation is key.

So anyways, our good friend Tey loves
you know, kind of taking us by the

hand and leading us through new and
different gaming systems, which of

course we love because if it were
not for the people like Tey, I would

do the same thing day in a day out.

So I feel like you, I need those people
in my life to like, push me and say

let's go, let's try this new thing.

So he said, there is a game
I want to play with you.

It's a game built, is it
Powered by the Apocalypse?

Is that the, the gaming

Matt: Yes.

That is the core.

Yeah.

yeah.

AK: It's called Masks.

And in Masks, you take on one
of, I think there's eight or ten

kind of stereotypical superhero

Matt: Archetypes.

AK: Archetype personas.

Um, and you, in the most beautiful,
angsty, teenage fashion, save Halcyon City

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: from certain doom, and
other stereotypical superheroes.

Matt: Yes.

Like, like lunch ladies and crushes
and why did I start with lunch ladies?

AK: I

Matt: Yeah.

Anyway, well, you know, crushes and,
and bullies and, and teen it zits

and you know, teenage stuff too.

Yeah.

AK: People trying to take your lunch
money before you get to the lunch lady

Matt: There we go.

That, there we go.

The lunch lady's trying to take your lunch
money before you get to the lunch ladies.

AK: Exactly, boy, we're really
making people wanna play this game.

Matt: Yeah.

Anyway, yeah.

AK: We played this
superhero game called Masks.

We're hoping the first of many sessions.

And so we wanted to talk about
our experience with that,

of course, on this episode.

But then I said, but wait, behind the
mask is the secret identity and how does

that play into ADHD and being neurospicy
and it plays in so well because, to

like I mentioned, we did, you know, the
quickest amount of research on this and

basically to sum it up, masking is when
somebody who is neurodivergent, whether

or not they're aware, the actions that
they take to try to, and I'm gonna

air quote this, appear more normal.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: You and I are two people that
have been diagnosed as adults.

that we have shared a lot.

Um, But I think, correct me if I'm
wrong, we were both aware long before

either of us were diagnosed that
there was something spicy about us

and our sweet little brains, right?

Matt: Mm.

In that we spent an inordinate
amount of energy masking,

masking the hell out of our lives

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: 100%.

AK: So as to appear normal.

Mm-hmm.

I know, like I have always
thrived in the chaos.

I have always been a fairly messy
and, and disorganized person.

And I remember the horror in high
school of my locker and, and like

it was one of those lockers that
you open and just like exploded.

And I remember, I remember being
embarrassed knowing that that wasn't

normal, knowing that like you're, you
know, especially all the little girls

in Alabama in the nineties, you know,
they had all of their like beautiful

floral, you know, matchy matchy.

And I just, I didn't have those
things and I didn't >really>< have

much interest in those things.

But I will never forget, I was in 10th
grade and some older girls that were

popular and that I admired were sitting in
our, our common area was called the Mall.

They were sitting in the
mall next to my locker.

And, um, I, you know, had to like,
you know, hi, can I, you know, nerdy

little Alison needed to get through
and get her chemistry book or whatever.

And I remember opening my locker and the
explosion happening and one of the girls

saying to me, I thought you were neat.

Like, that surprises me that your locker
looks like that cuz you seem like the

kind of person who would be more neat.

And I remember like the shame that I
felt, um, in that moment and, and, and,

and being acutely aware of the fact
that like, I should hide my messiness.

I should hide my chaos from the world
and basically spent the rest of high

school and college doing exactly that.

Matt: You had to make an
RSD check and you failed.

AK: I failed.

Big time.

Yeah.

Matt: Yes.

AK: Um, I've also learned in the research,
and this is something that that has been

brought up by some of our friends, in
our ADHd20 community since starting this.

Some of these things just are
more prevalent in women than men.

Apparently masking is a big one of
those things because, you know, there's

the expectation of women we're gonna
be kind of the planners and the ones

you know, that are a little bit more
with it and together not to be sexist.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: One of the big reasons that women
often are either not diagnosed or are

diagnosed later in life is because they,
I'm not saying that they do a better

job of masking, but they are more apt
to mask, to try and cover those symptoms

Matt: and willing, yeah, more
willing, more patient about it.

According to Russell Barkley who
coined this term masking, he also

calls it impression management.

Impression management.

It happens in one third of people with
ADHD, but I will immediately say that I

believe that that number is far higher.

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: I think to your point, there's
probably a ton of women, especially

who just, I mean, generally women have
a higher tolerance to pain, and and

acceptance of, of social injustices.

And, and, uh, yeah.

Yeah, that's what I, that's my vote.

That's my vote, is that there's a whole
lot more masking going on, but yes.

AK: Well, and I found that, so I, um, you
had turned me on to, ADDitude, A-D-D-itude

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

AK: I found this one, this quote
really kind of stuck out to me cuz

I was like, oh, I feel called out,
"...From constructing highly structured

environments to obsessively avoiding
specific situations and people."

So like, the part that made me
feel called out was the obsessively

avoiding specific situations.

I think that I don't think
that I am a control freak.

This is not, these are not words.

I'm not type A.

But I realized other, a, a lot of people
in my life have called me a control

freak and would happily label me that.

I realized in reading that, that I have
specifically avoided or specifically

taken control in an effort to avoid
situations that make me uncomfortable.

And that my mask, therefore, is
one who wants to be in charge.

The leader or the bossy
pants control freak.

Um, which is interesting.

Matt: I've got a bunch of examples

here I would like to share.

Um,

AK: I, we did our research.

We came with our little notes.

We were little

Matt: yeah.

Oh yeah.

AK: gophers in name of science.

Matt: Uh, yeah.

Here's some really good ones here.

I'll try to pick out the ones that,
that have always applied to me.

AK: Okay.

Matt: Obsessively checking belongings
to make sure you don't lose things.

Bing, bing, bing, bing.

1000%.

AK: God, yes.

Matt: Yeah.

Uh, let's see.

Seeming fine, acting, quote unquote fine
when you're struggling to stay afloat.

In my case, saying that I'm fine.

In my case, going on stage and acting

AK: fine.

Matt: Uh, going out and, and talking
to people after a show or something.

Uh, let's see.

Arriving way too early.

Yes.

To ensure that you're not late to an
appointment due to time blindness.

Uh, here's a good one.

Excessively writing things down
so you don't forget things later.

Bing bing bing bing!

Uh, obsess

AK: Oh, no.

Matt: This one, this one.

Really, I, I actually had to
take a breath after this one.

Obsessively organizing
paperwork and systems.

AK: Oh,

Matt: Oh God.

Oh my God.

AK: It's you!

Matt: If people only knew, if people
only knew, and I tried to talk about

it, and that's not, that's just the tip
of the iceberg, uh, bottling intense

emotions until you're sick inside Yeah.

And that's, that's a terrible one.

Calling in sick to avoid being put
in stressful or anxiety inducing

situations, which I have done a lot.

AK: Ooh.

Matt: Uh, not necessarily work,
but just like social engagements.

I do that unfortunately.

Anybody who's listening
this, that's my friend.

I'm sorry.

I've probably done it to
you and I apologize, uh, but

you know, now I know why.

Let's see.

Being irritable when you force
yourself to concentrate on

things that don't interest you.

AK: Ouch ouch!

Matt: Uh oh.

Uh

AK: Called

Matt: Uh, Developing
perfectionistic tendencies.

Ooh,

AK: Yeah.

If it's not perfect, I
want nothing to do with it.

And that's so gross cuz I don't, I don't
hold anybody else to that standard.

Matt: Yes, yes, yes.

I

AK: Ridiculous.

Matt: We about it all the time.

Overdoing things until exhaustion sets
in so that others can see how capable

you are even when you're struggling.

Uh, and here's another one.

Here's

Mimicking or copying other
people in social situations.

AK: That is a big one that
I at least was aware of.

Again, out of that desire to make
other people feel more comfortable.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: And again, it all goes back to that
in order to hide this aspect of yourself

that you have not grown comfortable with.

Matt: So we're talking, we're literally
talking about secret identities.

We're literally talking about this
and it, this just blew my mind

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Because the impact of doing this
your entire life is, I mean for those

of us that realize it, get help, get
diagnosed and try to understand, try to

forgive, go to therapy, whatever you need.

Uh, okay.

It's still difficult.

It could be full on dangerous.

Right.

Um, certainly masking can lead to
depression, anxiety, as it did me.

Uh, you learn, you, you've just become
exhausted from trying to fit in.

You just, you and, and you just constantly
think that you are a failure or whatever.

Uh, people don't believe that you have
ADHD when you really, really, really do.

Um, my mom, not, not throwing her under
the bus, but when I first told her, I've,

I've mentioned this, when I first told her
and she said, no, you have great grades.

AK: Those great grades were the
result, the consequence of you masking

because I'm betting those great grades
didn't come easily for you, and you

had to bend over backwards and twist
yourself into ways that were really

unnatural for your brain and body
to be in order to have those grades.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: Which is exactly the point you were
trying to make in sharing with her.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

I'm so proud of, you know, we'll say
Gen X down embracing this, but Boomer

Generations, Greatest Generation,
like y'all need therapy and like

you're dragging the rest of us down.

Um, it, I mentioned this now,
several episodes in a row, but,

you know, the, the, my family
vacation that didn't go well.

A lot of that is my dad's refusal
to accept his neuro spiciness.

Matt: Right.

AK: Um, Yeah, and so it's interesting
that you bring up, so one of the other

things from the article that I pulled
up from ADDitude that stood out to me

was the consequence of ADHD masking.

It says, ADHD masking, as we know,
may delay or sabotage diagnosis,

especially in girls or women.

Internalized conditions including
anxiety or depression, might develop

as a consequence of undiagnosed,
untreated and hidden ADHD.

It also interferes with a person's
ability to accept the brain they have.

This go, comes right back to what we
were talking about earlier, take pride in

their strengths and do more of what works.

So what if you and I spent our
time producing this podcast that

we love, jamming ourselves into the
roles that we did not belong in?

What if, you know, I said no.

It is so important for Matt
to see me an excellent video

editor, as as a sound engineer

Matt: I, I, yes.

I see.

I I see what you're saying.

Yeah, exactly.

And, this is one of those that, that
is, is a major breakthrough for me

because, these things, these impacts
for masking, there have been times

where, uh, it feels like a burden.

ADHD feels like a heavy, heavy burden.

This is so good to learn about because
I think this is actually truly the

way out of those kinds of feelings.

Not okay.

Uh, you know, I'm not, I'm not diminishing
ADHD by saying it's not a burden,

but I'm also saying this is the way
that you can try to turn that frown

upside down in your darkest moments.

You're not going to, you're not
going to get rid of the symptoms.

We cannot change the brains.

But this awareness of, uh, uh,
that was masking, I'm, I'm masking.

I am playing a role.

I'm playing a part right now, and
it's only making, it's only going

to make me upset later when I
realize, or people around me, right?

Like I, you know, whatever it
is, replacing outward stress,

which everyone should deal with
better, with inward stress.

Let's not, let's try not to do that.

But those things, you can focus
on, those things you can try to

replace with better habits and stuff.

So this is, this is good.

This is good.

AK: So ready for me to, now I'm
gonna reveal my, like, glass shatter

brain break moment in all of this.

And also connect the dots between the
TTRPG that we played how I used it

to, to, to reach this realization.

So, uh, so Tey fed us all of the source
material for this wonderful game, Masks.

Matt and the other, Matt and
Evan, and Fitz and I all chose

our they're called playbooks.

Our, um, our archetypes

Matt: Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

AK: And you kind of have a choice
in your playbook of is your

identity going to be secret or not?

And so we were pretty
split down the middle.

A couple chose secret identity.

A couple of us chose no, kind of
out and proud with my, my superhero.

I thought the most interesting one
in the game that we played was the,

the character choice that Fitz made.

Um, she hides her identity of her,
of her super, hero, uh, who is, uh,

Critter Captain, which I just love.

Uh, and then her real, the girl behind
Critter Captain, uh, is named Reggie.

Reggie is the real part.

The masking is not the superhero.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: The masking is not Superman.

The masking is Clark Kent.

And so it's so remarkable to me that
we're hiding some of the best parts

of ourselves because of our perception
of others', perceptions of us.

Um, and it seems backwards.

You think, you think of superheroes
as putting on a mask, right?

That like in order for like Clark
Kent to go find a telephone booth

and, you know, whirl into Superman
mode, that's him donning his mask.

But his biggest mask is
him trying to fit in.

And why would you wanna
fit in with the normies?

Matt: Right, right.

AK: Why, you know, like,
Stand out, you know, and

Matt: I thought Fitz did a really, really
beautiful job in game of, of playing to

both sides of playing Critter Captain
and Reggie, and forging relationships

and alliances on both sides of that mask,
but, but Alison with the Meta Knowledge,

Mm-hmm.

AK: versus Alison's
character, um, I don't know.

It was just, it was kind of
surreal because I had this like

aha moment, I guess is what I'm
trying to say of like, Masking is

backwards from what you think it is.

It's not you, you know, trying to
make other people feel like you're

cooler or have some superpower.

It's you hiding the real you, the thing
that makes you special and unique.

You know, and that's, that's why we
have these conversations, I guess,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

AK: to convince people to, I
mean, you can be both sides.

You can be multifaceted as a person.

You can have special abilities and
be entirely mundane, and that's okay.

Matt: Uh, uh, well, gosh.

Yeah, it's, hmm.

That's amazing.

Uh, all right, let's, let's talk about
some of the other characters too, because

there's, there's some stuff in there.

So your character, is basically out loud
and proud, uh, as a super creature, right?

She has an immense power, and does have
like a cool hero name, which is French.

I don't even remember it.

AK: La Douleur Exquise!

Because we were playing angsty
teenagers, I created this character.

Her name is, uh, Ciel Lavoie.

Her parents are all, are also superheroes.

She is very privileged and knows it.

Um, and she kind of, the mask that she
wears, and I did this very intentionally,

is she tries so hard to be cool.

So everything she's doing is, she's
only doing so other people will

look at her and go, wow, she's cool.

So she chooses this completely,
"The Exquisite Pain", like this

stupid, stupid superhero name
cuz she thinks it sounds cool.

She thinks it sounds punk.

Matt: Exactly.

That's what I was gonna say is like, I,
uh, you know, your, your superhero was

out, uh, in the open but then, but then
Ciel still masks is still masking things.

Uh, And then my character
actually had sort of a, an

affliction, like a curse sorts.

And, only wants to be normal,
because she transforms into

something that is horrific.

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: This wraith, this,

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: um, I mean powerful and,
you know, strong but scary.

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: Just scary.

And she does not like that.

she, she also wears all these
bright colors to try to get

attention maybe to bring attention
to the human parts of her, right.

When, why, when she's human, that
she can, she can kind of feel

normal and that's all she wants.

it's a great game because it is not
about, uh, so Lindsay and I, we describe

everything that's either combat or star
fighting or anything is pew, pew, pew.

So this is not a pew,
pew, pew game, right?

Like this is, there's no,
there's no hit points.

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: You, you can be in a fight with
a super villain, but, uh, the roll of

the dice kind of dictates whether or
not you or the super villain become

angry or ashamed, or afraid based on the
hits that you make, which is amazing.

And, uh, instead of, instead of attributes
like wisdom, charisma, strength,

intelligence, you've got things like,
how dangerous do you feel right now?

What's your, what's your danger level?

What's your superiority level?

What's your

AK: Freak.

Matt: What's your freak?

And then what's your, what's your

AK: Get your on!

Matt: And that's so fun because it starts
off, as, you know, it really speaks

to teenagerness and, and the levels
of, of, of, of heightened emotion and

experience that you have every day.

But, but just the, the knowing that
those things are just constantly shifting

and I just wanna feel normal or I just
wanna be different, you know, like,

and, and I remember, I, I remember in
high school I would just vacillate, I

talk all the time about what I, what a
proto hipster I was, and that I hated

everything that was popular and cool.

And yet at the same time, no one
liked me in part because of that.

And so I would be like,
I don't have any friends.

I can't have a both, I can't
have a both ways, but I would

go bong bong B, trying to who?

AK: Yeah.

Matt: Well, it was just a bunch
of masking is what it really was.

AK: It's, it is interesting.

I never had thought about this before,
but I was, I was not a hipster.

I've never been a hipster.

Um, but I was trying very hard to play to
two very, like, disparate sides, right?

So, on one hand I had
embraced my, my geekiness.

I, I knew that I was weird from the jump.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: I knew from day one of
kindergarten that I was not like

the kids I was going to school with.

I knew I was a nerd.

I knew I was a freak.

I, you know, I've loved music
and theater and all these

things from a very young age.

So I was in all of the choirs.

I was in all of the theater productions.

I was in all of the bands.

Matt: Yeah.

You leaned into it,

AK: I was also in a sorority
and like, cared very much what

the general populace of Mountain
Brook High School thought of me.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Sports

AK: Yes, and, and, and

Matt: Church.

AK: In some weird way managed to.

I don't even know how I did this, but I
managed to be successful on both sides.

Um, it, I, I was in
band, I was a band geek.

I mean, there's no two ways around
this, but I was also in the most

popular sorority and though
that's what I wanted, right?

I wanted to be in the band
and I wanted to be popular.

I was constantly feeling
tugged, so I wasn't happy.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: I had my real friends, you know,
basically saying like, what are you

putting on these airs for, you know, and
then I had the popular kids doing what

popular kids do, peer pressuring and,
you know, trying to help make me cooler

Matt: Yeah.

AK: than I was

Matt: Let's, let's talk about that
actually, because that is, that is

an endless amount of fascination
for me as someone who was born in

the early seventies, uh, my, my high
school experience was identical to

Freaks and Geeks, the show where
there were very very clear lines,

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: wide lines between the nerds,
the jocks, the cool people, the

unpopular, the freaks, the blank.

really, it's difficult for me to
watch that show even, though I love

it because it is so real to me.

And then I, it seems to me that 10
years later, you and Lindsay, my

wife, who is profoundly deaf, and you
would think, I mean, how many movies

have you seen where the disabled
kid gets made fun of all the time?

I'm not saying that she wasn't
made fun of necessarily.

Yeah.

She didn't go through these
things the way that I did.

And, and so, you know, for, for a while
I thought, well, okay, because she's

a mid westerner, let's say, but no.

Because you, you didn't have
as much trauma in high school.

AK: Oh, I had trauma, but from
something completely different.

Matt: Okay.

AK: My trauma was not from my geekiness.

Because I was loud about it.

From an early age was kind
of like, this is how I am.

You're gonna take it or leave it.

But I had an immense amount of
trauma because of my weight,

because teenage boys are assholes.

Matt: Okay.

AK: So, so

Yeah.

They are,

I think that, no, and it's totally fine.

I think that shaped, I mean, and this
is a whole other can of worms to open,

I think that shaped my personality.

You've got, a woman, a girl, a female
with ADHD who is overweight in the

south where we are, looks obsessed,

So I have all of those factors
working against each other.

And what I have noticed about girls who
had weight issues from a young age, we,

we go one of two ways and they're extreme.

They're never middle grounds.

You were either wallflower,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: Shy, do not speak, or you are, guess
which one I turned out to be you guys?

Matt: I dunno.

I think you're right though.

And I, I'm not allowed to speak on
that in any way, shape or form, but

AK: yeah.

Matt: From just experience of
knowing people, it seems to be

that, that makes a lot of sense.

AK: Yeah.

Matt: Uh, okay.

AK: But, I think that, you know, so we're
talking about my neurodiversity and your

neurodiversity and, you know, now high
school archetypes and things like that.

But I think, I think both of those parts
of my personality, the, the overweight and

the ADHD fueled my mask because it just
sent me on this quest to prove something

Matt: Mm-hmm.

AK: Which not good, but, you know,
but to, desperate to fit in because

I didn't, I didn't look like what
people wanted me to, and I didn't

act like what people wanted me to.

So I was in a state of constant overdrive

Matt: Yeah.

AK: To control what I
could control, I guess.

Matt: And you say that you had some
success though, and that's what

I'm, that's what I'm getting at
is, is what happened in those 10

years because I did the same things.

what happened in those
years where I get beat up

AK: Yeah,

Matt: and you, no matter how hard I'm
trying, and you you can, you can rise

above, Lindsay can rise above and

AK: I have a hypothesis there.

Matt: okay, please.

AK: I think, first of all, I've
long thought this, that you

were born in the wrong era.

I am very curious what Matthew
Bivins been like if he too had have

been born somewhere in the early
to late eighties, for example.

Matt: Yeah, me too.

Me too.

AK: You are a thousand percent a Gen Xer.

I'm not trying to pull you in
it, but I, I do wonder what, what

that would've been like for you.

But I think something happened between,
I think it started in the seventies and

I think we started to really deconstruct
it as children of the eighties.

And then children of the nineties,
two thousands and beyond are

like full on bashing it down.

Is this concept of a binary
that there is you know, there's

are as black or it is white.

I think that the further into the 21st
century, we have gotten, and I have

this, opinion because of my work with
teens, uh, over the past couple of

decades as a sorority advisor for, uh,
college and as a youth advisor for,

uh, middle school and high schoolers.

They just don't see
the world the same way.

Matt: Yeah.

Right.

AK: And I think that, that there was like,
you were just like the tiniest glimmer

back in the seventies with that of like,
hey, there's, you know, nothing is binary.

Nothing is one thing or another.

Everything is a spectrum.

Yeah.

Matt: That's what I, that's
used to say everyday at recess.

Yeah.

Everything is spectrum.

No, but seriously, I did feel that.

I was always confused by that.

Yeah.

Continue, please.

Right?

AK: It's funny, my, uh, my best
friend's oldest daughter, uh, when

she was little, she used to say,
but I just have a sparkly brain.

I think just more accepted, you know, for,
for people to have sparkly brains now.

And the problem is, is that you had
a sparkly brain when you were coming

of age, and I had a sparkly brain.

I think I do, I think that that's what
happened between when you came of age

when Lindsay and I came of age, and
then now whatever the hell's going on

now we're just like, we are who we are.

And we can be that way as early
as we want to be that way.

And we hundred different things at
once and nothing has to be constrained.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: I don't

Matt: Well, uh, well, I love it.

That's, that's a great theory.

And I especially love the part where
it is, it continues to get better

I see it too.

I see it too,

AK: The kids are all right,

Matt: Mm-hmm.

, I think the kids are really alright.

When I talk to our
friend Nathan about this.

Because he has a son and
he's so in love with his son.

He's so proud of him and so amazed
at how much healing had, has happened

, how much, how much Gabe is, is able
to Gabe's whole generation, not just

Gabe, but his friends and everybody.

He's always just, Nate's just
glowing about these kids.

And, and, but we do talk about like,
damn man, we did have that sparkly

brain and we were out of time.

AK: And then somehow from the ashes, we've
got Gen Z flying in on their unicorns

and Falcore dragon from The Neverending
Story cuz they're into retro things now

Matt: Yes.

AK: And saving the fricking
day by presenting a spectrum

in literally all that they do.

It, it's a whole new
generation of superheroes

Matt: Uh, yeah, it is, it is.

I'm living through y'all.

I am living through y'all.

And, and instead of being jealous,
okay, I'm a little bit envious.

I'm a little envious, but Okay, so
let's, one, one more thing I'll say

is that a side effect of masking
can mean that you are developing,

systems and skills that help you

AK: Mm-hmm.

Matt: In life.

You know, I am early now to the airport.

That is actually a good thing.

That's a pretty, that's
a pretty good thing.

Uh, and, and I, the only problem is
that I now have to dismantle the anxiety

and depression, um, the comorbidities,

AK: Yes.

Matt: uh, from those actions
late, late, late in life.

But it is kind of, it's cool that
I've developed them, a lot of them.

Uh, but yeah, j just to be able to
be able to have that clean slate and.

And have the doctors, and have the moms
and have the dads around you to be able

to say, okay, you don't have to mask.

AK: I love how all of this
just kind of weaves this web of

Matt: Me too

AK: Thought strands us
pull at, grabbing at 'em.

Matt: I, you know what?

This, even if there's nobody
listening to this right now,

this is still a great podcast.

Because it's so much to
learn, so much to learn

AK: Mm-hmm.

We we, we got people listening though.

We got some of the best people listening.

I'll

Matt: We do.

Thank you.

Thank y'all for doing so.

AK: Well, Matt, thanks

Matt: Well, Alison,

AK: Coming on my podcast.

Matt: Thank you for being on my podcast.

AK: I, I love our journey there that
we went from me th profusely thanking

you for having me on your podcast.

Every episode.

to me, having the gumption to say,
thanks for being on my podcast,

To the freaks and the geeks

Matt: Until next

week, Oh shit.

AK: Um, all right, well, glad, glad
that we have another banger out there.

Matt: Banging.

Yeah, that was actually
the word I was looking for.

Banger I, what did I say?

Bopper.

AK: Okay, boomer.

Matt: Okay.

Boomer.

Thank you for listening and being
a part of our ADHd20 family.

If you're looking for more, we'd love
to see you in our public Discord server.

Look for the link in our show notes and
come join the chatter about all things

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Alison: We also have a Patreon where
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Alison: Thank you for being a pal!

To us as people, to ADHd20 the podcast,
and to the greater Bivins Brothers

Creative Commonwealth of Nerds.