ADHd20 s02e13: the Declaration of Codependence, with Evan Bivins
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Matt: [00:00:00] Hi, everybody. On this week's episode of ADHd20, we have special guest Evan Bivins.

Alison: ADHd20 is a podcast that explores the intersection of ADHD.

Matt: and TTRPGs.

it out

Alison: We're getting better and better at that, Matt! Stay tuned because we're going to see if by the end of the episode, we'll be able to diagnose Evan with ADHD, OCD, GAD, or something else.

Matt: All the alphabets.

Evan: STDs,

Alison: There it is.

Matt: ~First recording of the past!~

Evan: Um, should I be talking yet?

Alison: Yeah. Why not? We keep it loose and easy, easy breezy, beautiful. ADHd20.

Evan: Great. Easy breezy. So sleazy.

Matt: Alison, how are you?

Alison: Hi, Matt. I'm great. How are you?

Matt: I, I'm very excited about today because our guest today is someone I've known for 49 years. I love him dearly. [00:01:00] He is the other founder of Bivins Brothers Creative.

This is my brother, Evan Bivins. Welcome, Evan.

Alison: Yay! That's exactly what you sound like all the time.

Evan: This is what I sound like now. Um, I'm starting a new company. It's called Thermanos.

I just need a turtleneck and, um, and a jail sentence.

Matt: Yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

Evan: Good. Tight.

Matt: Thanks.

Alison: We have an assortment of topics to discuss with our not quite diagnosed, but considered neuro spicy friend Evan today. But first, let's, let's do some other stuff that we like to do here around ADHd20.

So Evan, uh, did you come prepared with a d100?

Evan: Oh yeah. That's

Matt: Yes!

Evan: Yes, I did. Nuh [00:02:00] buh buh buh buh buh. Um,

Matt: You

Alison: I'm going to make a dice gremlin out of you both. I just,

Evan: Are you?

Alison: You heard it here, ADHd20 listeners.

Evan: Okay, I have a number.

Alison: Tell me,

Evan: That number is 36.

Alison: What's the story behind your name?

Evan: Well, there actually is a story behind my name. That's funny. My, my, uh, Evan is my first name and it is, yeah, Evan is the Welsh name for John, in case you didn't know.

Alison: Oh, I didn't.

Evan: Originally my parents had considered naming me John Bivins, the third, but my dad was like, no, no, no, he was John Bivins Jr. We're not having John Bivins the third, um, way too pretentious, but he did know that the, the Welsh name for John was Evan and, and the name, the surname Bivins [00:03:00] is also, Welsh and, it originally, uh, would have been spelled something like B apostrophe, and B apostrophe in Welsh would be something like McDonnell or O'Donnell, like in Ireland or Scotland or something like that.

Of means of, and so Bivins would have been B apostrophe Evan, of Evan. So John, son of John, is what my name literally means.

Matt: hmm.

Evan: There you go.

Alison: My brother's name is also Evan and my mom picked his name out of a hospital database.

Matt: How cold and

Evan: How did she get her hands on a hospital database?

Alison: My mom worked at a hospital.

Evan: Oh, oh, okay. Okay.

Matt: You're hacking into the database of the hospital. I

Alison: She would come home with stories of dumb things people's names were like that were on the hospital roll. And yeah, we [00:04:00] might similarly, my parents, my mom wanted to say my brother, Andrew David after my dad, Albert David, and my dad said, no, this is a trend. And so mom turned to the, she would like check the inpatient outpatient records every day until she found a name she liked.

And it was Evan.

Evan: It's a, it's a, it's a pretty good, it's a decent name. It's a decent name. When I was really little, I thought it was embarrassing because I was different than everybody and I wanted to be, you know, I was already too different from everybody. I was too nerdy. And, um, but now, you know. That you don't meet that many Evans in life.

Alison: Uh, John, John of John, Evan of Evans. We love it. You're the Evaniest Evan that we've ever known.

Evan: Yeah. Tis

Alison: I.

Matt: The name's great. I had to name it twice. Um, well, welcome, Evan Bevan. Evan is not only my brother, but he is, an incredibly talented graphic designer, web, web designer

Evan: Get out of here.

Matt: Digital designer, he [00:05:00] is, uh, um, uh, a drummer extraordinaire

Evan: Get out of here. I'm warning you.

Matt: And, towards the show, he is also, uh, definitely, not that I've played with a ton of players, but he is the first person I ever played Dungeons & Dragons with, for sure.

Alison: Same.

Matt: And, same, and he's a fantastic player at this. All of these things are true. I have basically been lucky enough, I have so many things that I feel hashtag blessed about. I have an amazing wife, I don't know how I found her, but I also have an amazing brother, and I just, I, I know this doesn't work for everybody, I always say this, I know it doesn't work for everybody, so don't feel bad about it, but somehow my brother, and I have been able to be best friends since we were little, and have been able to work together our whole lives on almost every project, um, [00:06:00] and I don't know, I couldn't imagine any other way to do this

Evan: You know, I forget, I forget that, that other siblings don't have the relationship that you and I have. And when then I, when I'm reminded of that, I'm so sad for them.

Matt: That's why I feel super lucky because, because I've been able to.

Evan: Thanks brother. Same, same, back at you. Yeah.

Matt: We have a live stream together called The BivBros Show, where we talk about a bunch of things. More and more these days about D& D, but all, all manner of things that we like to do. So that's been fun. And, uh, but, but we've been wanting to get him on this show because, uh, Alison and I have learned so much.

I think Evan just got jealous. We've learned so much about our neurodivergent brains.

Uh.

Evan: FOMO for real.

Matt: FOMO for real. Everybody wants to be diagnosed with some kind of spicy brain.

Evan: Yeah, I've got NeuroSpice FOMO. Feeling left out and feeling normie and boring.

Matt: Normie, no [00:07:00] no.

Alison: Normie and boring are two words I would never use to describe you, Evan. Let's just get that out of the way right now.

Evan: Okay, great.

Alison: Uh, this is actually a bait and switch. We got you on the podcast today under the pretense of us diagnosing you, but really you're here to tell everybody in the world how much it sucks to work with two people who have ADHD.

The floor is yours. Go.

Matt: How challenging it may be. No, no. I think , I think, I think a bit of both things, right? Like, here's, okay, here, here's one thing that we've discovered. Uh, Evan and I work tend to work very well together, and I think that one reason that we're we've always been able to work together is because, again, pre-diagnosis for me, we discovered that uh, my strengths were not as, not as much his, maybe, and then, and definitely vice versa, as far as elements of focus, or elements of [00:08:00] big picture ness, but both, all of them are very important, but somehow we've been able to kind of find that lock in. Uh, and Getting diagnosed with ADHD, but then especially starting this podcast and talking about it all the time really does, you know, we call it armchair diagnosis, right?

So I have been waiting for this. So because number one, Evan's like, I want an armchair diagnosis, but also number two, uh, we are very, very curious as to what it's like working with two people.

Evan: Uh,

Matt: Yeah, it's gotta be a challenge in many ways, maybe a delight.

Evan: Uh, yeah, sometimes it is a delight. Um, and I mean, working with you guys is always a delight. Uh, the ADHD experience is sometimes a delight. You know, the funny thing for me is that we didn't, we, what year were you diagnosed? Both of you guys.

Alison: Close to a decade ago. Yeah. A decade or so

Evan: And then brother, [00:09:00] yeah, I mean, we've, I mean, you were diagnosed

Matt: When I was 30 ish. Or, or,

Evan: That late, really? Okay. Wow. Okay. That, that's, that's

Matt: It was actually towards the end of the, of the rock band, honestly.

'cause I, because I was, I was in a spiral of, what the hell.

Evan: Interesting. Okay. Well, I remember very clearly, I'll do a little preamble. This has nothing to do with working together, but I remember the first time I saw your ADHD and didn't really know what it was, I didn't know what was happening and I, I, um, I felt very bad for you. We were moving out of our apartment together.

Um, we had that cool apartment in Charleston.

Matt: Mm-hmm.

Evan: And you were trying to pack up your room. And you were sitting in the floor with just stuff everywhere, completely shutting down.

And I didn't know... What was going on? I didn't know how to help you. Um, I didn't know, you know, of course in back then, you know, my first [00:10:00] thought was what you just do it. You just pack. Right? Right. I didn't say that to you. I don't think I don't know what I said to you if anything at all. But that was the I did.

Well, we were on a time we did. We had to be out like that day.

Matt: You should have been angry. You definitely should have been

Evan: I don't know about should have, but I don't know that I was, I don't remember being angry. I knew that we had a time constraint, but anyway, that was the first time I remember seeing it. Um, so. Anyway, that was probably gosh, 2006, maybe. So fast forward to 2008, you and I are living in Chicago.

We are broke. We started a business and, uh, we are making websites and we've been working together ever since in a more you know, increasingly structured way over time, especially since AK joined us far more structured, far more functional, um, and probably a large amount of that time, it wasn't as visible to us because it [00:11:00] was just you and me and, you know, we were cutting our teeth in a lot of ways and, um, you know, there, there still wasn't enough structure that we really showed itself or mattered or we felt it in any way, but in recent years, when we've been leveling up and leveling up and all of a sudden things are more structured and there's more clients and there's more projects, more deadlines, more stuff in the past year, especially, uh, that was when we were like, wait a minute, this is, this is something that we. Um, Okay. We should probably talk about this, especially with AK coming on as well.

And um having her own flavor of ADHD. Then, then we really, really said, Oh gosh, we have to figure out how to make this work for us and work with this. Um, so my first goal, I'm just talking a lot, but my first goal as we started those conversations was to number one, be very [00:12:00] sensitive to the fact that anybody with ADHD, because I, I've learned a lot from you guys.

You know, saying to somebody, just focus, right? Do it, saying all the wrong things that just aren't going to help anybody. It's not productive. And honestly, the more that I listened to this podcast, the more you guys explore your own ADHD, the more I understand it, the more empathy and compassion that I have for it. Um, so, um, that's my starting point. I've, I've laid the, I've paved the road. I'll stop talking now.

Matt: You have, yeah. Evan really case book did everything right in this situation where as you said, we, we started realizing, okay, we work very differently.

We work very differently. And this is, a challenge, I wouldn't even necessarily call it a problem, but is, is, is something that like any workplace [00:13:00] environment can be worked on and you, you just said, look, I'm going to listen. I'm going to learn along with you. Uh, I am going to talk to you about this.

I'm going to talk to you about my own feelings of, uh, you know how I feel that my brain doesn't quite fit in with the quote unquote, uh, neurotypical world, right? Uh, and you really did, casebook, just check all the, the things. Ask, talk to, invite, welcome, listen. You know, all these things that, that we're learning is just so important.

And so, as you said, like, you just don't know. And... And, and anytime, anytime someone's like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, I'm so, I'm so sorry I, you know, I didn't, I didn't know. It's, it's okay. It's, it's okay if you don't know. It's a, like,

Evan: Yeah, most people don't.

Matt: Like, yeah, most people don't know. So Evan it really has been amazing [00:14:00] at at this this aspect of of workplace stuff.

Evan: I'm surprised that there's, I mean, maybe there is, I just don't, you guys, you have a coach, Matt, AK, you don't have a coach, but I guess there are people who are investigating,

Alison: I have a therapist, it's not the same thing as a coach, but working with somebody outside of my immediate circle who only knows me within a certain context can be supremely helpful because they can pick up on things that like, you're either your friends and family aren't because they're too close to it, or that because they're too close to it, somebody might not feel comfortable saying that this kind of outsider can say, well, actually,

Evan: hmm, mm hmm,

Matt: Yeah, but what were you saying?

Evan: Well, I was just thinking about, like, is there a template out there for, here is how, um, ADHD, how you can make your ADHD work. For you and your coworkers in, in a, in a structured workplace. Like if there's, um, that kind of, [00:15:00] coaching and, or

Alison: An ADHD playbook, yeah.

Evan: Yeah. Primer for how, like, because people don't know, right.

Um, an example, my beautiful wife, Elise, not to do with ADHD, but she, as the director of HR for her company. She had, um, an employee with a, with a, diagnosed neuro spicy condition condition.

Thang. They had their neuro spicy um, diagnosis and, it was creating some issues with their other employees who didn't understand. It was like creating friction.

So that's just to say that most people don't, they don't, whether they're, they, they don't know what themselves about themselves or they don't know how to deal with somebody else.

Alison: Yeah.

Evan: We've certainly hit all these bumps in the road of like, okay. Um, object impermanence, and I know that you guys have recently redefined this, so I'm curious to know what that is, but, um, you know, for [00:16:00] an example of kind of early on, we'd say, okay, there's something we need to do where we're having our morning meeting or a weekly meeting.

Okay. Here's something we need to do. Great. We all agree that we need to do it. Awesome. Cool. Get off the meeting. Next week,

Matt: Mm hmm.

What do we need to do?

Evan: What happened? Let's do. Oh, remember that thing? Let's do it. Uh, and that was something that we eventually realized. Oh, shoot. If you don't write that down, literally, if you don't put it in front of you, um, it's gone. So, you know, that's just one of the things that we've tried to create. We put mechanisms in place and AK you did it just this morning. It's like, let's do this. If we're going to do this, let's write it down and put it in front of us so we don't forget.

Matt: And that is that is a is a journey that that I think Alison and I are both, you know

Alison: Still on.

Matt: Well, I think always we'll, we'll always be on and it is, you know, [00:17:00] um, but yeah, it is, it is, there's so much of that and really it's, it's interesting because one, we're going to start getting into the ways that we are similar as far as our brains work and I know that, one kind of crossroad, one, uh, Venn diagram center is, is, uh, RSD is the, is the sort of feeling of, tell me,

Alison: Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria.

Matt: Thank you, Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, uh, where you're worried about what other people think, and also that applies to yourself as well, where you will beat yourself up and you'll say these things, uh, and we all, as, you know.

I don't really know why, but I, I think that though there is a big part of it for all of us there, um, and so, so much of it is, yeah, we're going to, we're going to say this thing, we're going to do it next week.

Okay. Didn't happen. We're going to write it down. Okay. [00:18:00] Still didn't happen.

Okay. Okay. And, and we're going to not beat ourselves up, which is what we've spent lifetimes doing. And that's, that's what

Alison: And that is the game changer with the 3 of us, I think, and what we have as far as our business and our play is the grace. I think that a lot of us spend a lot of time not being extended any grace. And so to work with fellow neuro spicy types who say, hey, I see you. I accept you as you are. And if, if we forget to do it this week, cause we didn't write it down.

Not one of us remember to put that on a calendar.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: The world is not going to come screeching to a halt, believe it or not. Um, and that's, that's been all the difference for me because I think that now I am a fairly productive person, but I didn't used to be. And I realized it was because I didn't have that grace.

So thanks bros.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah. Grace is it. Grace is it. So, you know, again, I feel like we [00:19:00] say a lot, find your people, find your, your,

Alison: Find your Party.

Matt: Find your Party. Find your damn

Alison: I like, I like to party.

Evan, are, are, are you ready for us to diagnose you?

Matt: Yeah.

Evan: Oh, I thought you were baiting, you baited and switched me.

Alison: Oh, that, I was being funny. I actually have some tools and some hypotheses and if, if you want us to, we can, we can do it.

Matt: I have a question first though.

I just wanted to know why what what about say listening to our podcast talking to us as friends? What makes you think that you might that your brain might be neurodivergent?

Evan: Uh, what makes me think that, that I, that I am, that I do have some kind of spice? Um, I mean, I, I feel like in some way I have suspected for a really long time that maybe the, the first day that I learned that hyper focus was a, an aspect of ADHD I wondered, [00:20:00] I wondered, right?

Um, that for me is something that is very easily turned on. Um, but I do have days where, uh, I feel like I experienced and they're, they're, they're not necessarily back to back. I don't, I haven't ever drawn, um, any kind of conclusion or drawn a thread between, okay, here's cause and effect of I ate this the night before, or I didn't get enough sleep, and then, like, I haven't written it down, I haven't done the science to, to really identify what's affecting what, but I'll have days where I feel I cannot focus at all. I mean, everybody has these days, so it's, it's not, it doesn't necessarily mean that you have ADHD, but, um, but if those days feel so, much like what you guys are describing and what I know that you're going through, that it's like, okay, you know, if it, if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, um, why wouldn't hyper [00:21:00] focus just be my brand?

Um, there's also some emotional components of it that I, I find interesting, like the RSD part. I'm not ashamed to admit, that a lot of what has uh, when you guys started talking about that, I started to see a lot of similarities in codependence, which, uh, is something that I've been working on, uh, within myself, uh, in the past few years, both with my individual therapist and then, uh, group therapy and all kinds of therapy.

Uh, I, I married myself as part of a journey to, um, become. Yeah, it is a sweet ring. It's, it's wooden on the inside and I'll show you. It's very cool. Can you see that?

Matt: Yeah, talk about, talk about that, Biv, cause, uh, tell us more about marrying yourself.

Evan: The marry yourself, you want to know about the marry yourself journey, huh?

Matt: I'd love to!

Evan: Okay. Uh, well, uh, my, the, my, our, my group therapy therapist, uh, her name is Deva [00:22:00] Joy Gauss. Um, she is one of those special human beings that, uh, you just, it's like, I wish that everybody had my brother Matt as their brother. I wish that everybody's therapist could be Deva.

Uh, Deva started the program years and years and years ago, actually. When she was getting divorced, um, and from her husband, uh, they're actually now remarried. They've been remarried for years. They got back together. Uh, there was a happy ending. But they broke up the first time and she was feeling, very codependent. Right. And just had, I guess I should back up and say, does everybody know what codependency is?

Matt: No. I mean, yes, but no. In, in, in the way that you're using it so, so, uh, confidently.

Evan: I'll just read you here the definition of codependent from according to Google, uh, codependent. I have to take out my glasses. Um, I have to put my glasses back on. It's too, too far away. Uh, Codependent characterized by [00:23:00] excessive emotional or psychological reliance on a partner, typically one who requires support on account of an illness or addiction.

So that's Google's thing. That was not how it was explained to me by Deva, but, I'm not, I'm not going to be able to paraphrase what she said, but she basically described me and, um, and it had never been done before, but the way that I experience it. Is, is primarily in, um, it's incredibly uncomfortable for me to be in a relationship with someone where, um, something feels off is something is wrong.

If I I'm constantly pinging to make sure that everything is okay, that, and I will do anything, I'll say anything. I will try and I'll keep asking, are you okay? And I'm not just asking, you know, for a long time, I didn't know that I was doing this, but I didn't know that I was [00:24:00] asking not to, to genuinely see how they're doing.

I was making sure that I had not made them feel bad or they weren't angry with me. Really, it was that it was angry. So for the, for those of you who don't know me out there, or Matt, I suppose, we, we grew up in a house. Our dad. He loved us very much.

And I don't know if brother, you can speak for yourself, but I always knew that I was loved by him. But, but, um, he was also a man who was very complicated. He struggled with anger a lot. And therefore our, um, our house growing up was very scary oftentimes and, uh, unpredictable. And so you grew up making tools for yourself unbeknownst to yourself or anyone else to make sure that you're okay.

That, uh, to see if like, okay, I'm going to check and see if he's angry and if he is, is it, is it, what did I do? What do I, and what can I do to stop that? That's my experience of codependency.

I, I know this is [00:25:00] different for everybody else.

Alison: What's always been explained to me about codependent relationships and codependency. It's that when your mental and emotional health, and sometimes physical health and well-being is wrapped up in someone else, likely whose mental, emotional and physical health is also wrapped up in yours. So it's like, if 1 person starts to do well, the other person whose well-being is wrapped up in that person is going to try and tilt the scale to bring it back. And so maybe there's a difference between being codependent and codependent relationships.

And that's what kind of makes that

Evan: Well, uh, actually, I mean, that might be true. In my case, it's not true. So in the, in this group, when we first joined with the way that Deva described, these early pathways that get formed is you're a kid, right? You're really, really young. And, um, your parents, the people around you, your community. Um, they kind of grow into you and I always think of, um, [00:26:00] Hedwig and like the Origin of Love and like the Yin Yang kind of stuff is kind of like that, except it can be really out of balance, right?

Like your parents are either really overbearing and really in your space, so you shrink to get out of that, out of their way, or they overlap it, or they're really distant. And so you're constantly like trying to like, get more and more and more from them. And so that becomes your shape. And so when they're gone, when you're moved on, you're living your life as an adult, you're still in that shape.

And you were unbeknownst to yourself, you were seeking out people to fill that shape. And that's exactly what I did. The amazing thing about that is that it's a real opportunity for healing, if you're lucky like me and you have a spouse who is on that healing journey with you, then, then it can be really transformative.

And so identifying codependency in my life and what that meant, um, particularly the, the biggest part of it was finding my voice because that was something that Matt and I weren't allowed to have as [00:27:00] kids in the house. It's like literally the message was be quiet, right?

You're too loud. I can't. You know, you're, you're playing, you're just being a kid. That's too loud for

Matt: Yeah, I can't think.

Evan: Yeah, so the, the, the medicine for this is to find your voice and to try to find it and use it to identify what it is and, um, and then start using it. And a lot of people I imagine are like, what do you mean that you just use your voice, right?

They, if you don't experience it, then you don't know what I'm talking about. And that's okay. Good, good for you. Um, so the Marry Yourself Journey. Most of the guys who are in the circle, and I think originally they were probably 12 fellas. Most of us had codependent behavior patterns.

Deva started this, uh, when she got divorced. And she, being a therapist, devised a way to... take back her life, take control of the, you know, of her life and not [00:28:00] have this thing drive her behavior.

And um, she's very much an Earth Mother. Um, and so there's a lot of woo AK

Matt: Woo

Evan: Yeah, she's your, she's your lady. You're going, you're going to love Deva.

Alison: Well, and it's interesting, though, what you're talking about is in the woowoo world, what we call woowoo world, say that 5 times fast, what we call shadow work. It's a lot around healing your inner child. It's a lot under, like, all of the unseen things. That's why it's called shadow work, because we're not necessarily aware they exist below the surface and in shadows.

And so shadow work is exactly what you're talking about. Rewiring those neural pathways, because what's happening in our brain is when trauma is present, we're immediately pulling from that almost like a muscle memory. And that's why sometimes we snap and we have these really big emotional responses to things that the rest of the world's looking at going.

It's not a big deal. And you're like, it's the biggest deal. Right. Um, and so [00:29:00] this work, what you're talking about, shadow work, et cetera, is literally refiling that where it needs to be. So that way, when something triggers a response, you don't automatically go to the trauma response. So it's fascinating that you and I have both been working on shadow work, calling it different things, but please continue with Marry Yourself.

Evan: Yeah. And I mean, I think there's different methodologies and I, you know, I've never heard Deva use the word shadow work. We, we do actually in the, in the M-Y-J pretty young thing, in the Marry Yourself Journey. We do talk about shadow. But it's a totally different context. So for, so it's a whole course and it's a, it is more of a journey, um, where you're gonna dive into subjects like, the masculine and feminine in every person, and the, the shadow parts of masculinity and the light parts of masculinity and who, you know. And like, one of the things that we did was, okay, identify all the men in your life, um, [00:30:00] who've had the most impact on you.

And what are their traits and what, you know, then you try to figure out, okay, which of these traits are more of the shadow, like a darker, like a negative impact, toxic masculinity. And what are the, the, the lighter sides like the, uh, you know, the, the positive elements. And as you go into the course further and further, and you do that with the feminine as well, who are the women in your life and both their feminine and masculine traits.

So it's, you know, it's with everybody. And then you keep digging deeper and deeper and we started looking at, um, the four masculine archetypes, um, the king, the lover, the magician, and the warrior, and the shadow and light aspects of each of these archetypes and what parts in your life are you embodying, uh, which parts need, you want to call in more of.

And so we would meet monthly and we would, you know, kind of perform rituals [00:31:00] around these things and whatever the subject at hand was. Uh, masculine, feminine, the archetypes, we did this for a full year. And, it's so much that it's like, I've, it's hard to recall all of it, um, and in one second, but we actually just had our last meeting this past Saturday.

Matt: Wow.

Evan: Um, I got married in April, but there were two fellows in the group who weren't ready. We were all meant to get married on the same day and everyone performs a ritual. It's like a level of woo woo you guys cannot imagine me taking part in.

But, um. I'm, I was, I'm there for it. Uh, anyway, there were two guys in the group who, who just didn't feel ready yet. So they said, we need a few more months to really kind of internalize things and, and dig a little bit deeper. And so, um, that just was this past Saturday. We came back, everybody came to witness their, um, wedding and, it was, man, I mean, a year later. The, the thing that as we were all kind of [00:32:00] talking about, you know, what, how have we transformed over this year? What have we learned, what's happened? And the, the thing that I identified for myself was somewhere along the way, I, I came into this just internal anxiety and all of these feelings that I've just felt. Life was hard a year ago internally for me, um, for all kinds of different reasons. And, uh, I was, I came at this, like I needed this therapy, like I was gripping it really hard, like it was so focused on, I need this to, to help me figure out how to make my life better.

And somewhere along the way, as I was learning more and more, something happened and I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but that grip started to relax and I was reminded of my own faith in myself, uh, as somebody who knows that [00:33:00] there's no such thing as, uh, there's no goal to mental health and emotional health.

There's the journey and trusting that you're going to rise to every occasion. Um, and that's the best that anyone can ever do, right. To strive to be the best version of yourself. And that was the thing that I, I came away with of like, man, this really helps me see and embody that, helps me find my own voice and know when to use it, know how to be less reactive, which to bring this back to you guys, is a part of our business relationship is part of the thing of working with people with ADHD is being reactive is the thing that's going to shut you down immediately.

If I react, if I get pissed off at something, I'm like, what the hell? That's not only going to just not do anything useful. It's actively going to be painful for you guys. It's a, it's a layer deeper than that, right? With the RSD. So, anyway, [00:34:00] this was just part of the journey that I've been on to, to try and be these things, do

Matt: I have not heard this, the extent of the story. See, my brother is just a badass motherfucker. Um, Anyway, that's so cool. and I didn't, I can't believe I, I, I didn't know every detail about that. But,

Evan: Well, I don't talk about it that much. I'm definitely talking about it a whole lot right now on y'all's podcast.

So, so, Going back to the, to the, to the codependency thing. One thing that I've been curious about and asking you guys, I don't know how much you've explored this or not. Is what is the, I'd love to see the Venn diagram between codependency and RSD, which share a lot of similar, um, symptoms, I'd say, like the people pleasing the fear of rejection or anger that someone's upset with you.

Um, like what, what is coming from what side? Like, Oh, is that my codependency or is that my RSD? Or are they both firing at the same time? Or [00:35:00] what?

Alison: My understanding of RSD, um, is less about us doing things for a positive, negative or neutral reaction. Right? And more the internalized way that we react when we get either a negative or a neutral reaction, you know, so it's not that my RSD is forcing me to go out and seek Matt's praise. Otherwise, I'm worried that he doesn't love me anymore, but more about if Matt and I are talking, and he gives me a neutral response me, then internalizing that as, "What if Matt doesn't love me anymore?" Does that framing help or

Evan: Hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, that's interesting.

Alison: Matt's brow furrowed?

Matt: Well, no, I was going to say I do see the symptoms, the trait being similar, and I was going to say that RSD for me too is what explains my [00:36:00] inability to call a doctor or to, you know, set up something. It has a lot to do with strangers as well. Where that would not be a codependency necessarily. I mean, it could.

It could too.

Alison: And I, so I'll give a quick anecdote example of RSD flaring up for me on my recent vacation where I was with a lot of people that I know incredibly well and do feel both grace and freedom with. Um, I noticed that I was getting a lot of, I don't care. I don't care. Anytime I would ask, what do we want for lunch?

Do we want to go somewhere today? What time do we want to leave? Everybody's always going, I don't care. I don't care. And that drives me crazy when people give me an, I don't care. Mostly because most of the time people do care. And so it's like, so say, so say your opinion, there is no wrong opinion here.

We're all just sharing ours and I need to know because I'm a morning person. So if you're, if you're leaving the departure time up to me, I'm picking 9. We're going, you know, and then now you're going to be salty about it because you'd rather sleep in and have a nice, leisurely morning. And, [00:37:00] you know, and that's my RSD fueling my responses.

And so I finally lashed out because here's what I realized. People who repeatedly say, I don't care whenever I ask them their opinion, give me decision fatigue and then that makes me cranky and act out because I now feel like I'm having to do more of the work because you're giving me a neutral response and my RSD is having me interpret that neutral response as a negative. Because that's one of the big pillars of RSD that we've learned about is we assume neutral equal negative most of the time, which was fascinating to learn about. So I do wonder when it comes to seeking if maybe that is where the intersection is right.

The, the, when you're seeking a response from somebody and they're giving you a neutral or a negative, what flip that triggers and any of our sweet little neuro spicy brains,

Evan: Interesting. Interesting. [00:38:00] Yeah, I, I'm like a, um, on the codependent side of that spectrum. I'm like a human barometer. Like, I don't have to seek anything. It's like, I can tell, like, when the pressure changes in the room. It's, it's after that happens that I am compelled to say, Are you okay? But I, it's like, I, my, because of growing up the way that we did, my, I'm so attuned to, oh my god, it's like, it's, it's, it's a curse.

Matt: So your work has been kind of focused on similar to us, so if that's your, if that's the kind of thing that you, you need to watch because you're not you're not always aware that you're doing it, right,

Evan: Uh, no, I'm pretty aware actually.

Matt: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Evan: Um, the, the trick is to, to be aware, it's just to know when it's happening and not do it. Because it's triggering for Elise, if I'm just constantly pinging her, it's just annoying. I mean, if anyone's pinging you [00:39:00] all the time, it's, it's, it can be exhausting, right?

Matt: Hmm.

Evan: So I, one of the things, you know, you try to do is just sit in the discomfort, uh, when you are a codependent person, you have to sit in the discomfort of the feeling that you're having and let it pass, right? It's like, well, I don't need to ask them if they are okay.

And if I've have done something that is affecting their mood or feeling or way they perceive me or whatever it is. That's okay. That's, it'll get resolved, right? Like, I don't need to, ping this person right now.

Alison: So, one of the bits of research that I did in preparation for this episode was research, because I have been using them interchangeably and realized I was doing so incorrectly researching the difference between an impulse and a compulsion.

Matt: Mm.

Evan: Okay.

Alison: That led me on a path [00:40:00] of, uh, if we are going to diagnose Evan, what do we think it might be?

And what some of the language you've used and things like that, but you saying that really, so I want to read this really quickly because it ties in beautifully. And I want to say that I feel you very hard on that because when I think I've done something to set somebody off, I like, I just want to get in their space real quick.

And just be like, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you mad at me? Are you mad at me? Are you mad at me?

So. There. Yes. So hard on that. So, uh, impulse versus compulsion. A behavior is compulsive when you have the urge to do it repeatedly until a feeling of anxiety or unease goes away. A behavior is an impulse when you do it without forethought and without considering the consequences.

Well, I'm both.

Evan: Hmm. Yeah. But not necessarily at the same time.

Alison: Not necessarily at the same time, but I realized I do definitely have these compulsions of like, I will not rest until this is resolved. Usually my impulsivity is what led me to that feeling. Usually my impulse feeds my [00:41:00] compulsions.

Evan: Right. Yeah. Oh yeah. We're all caught in endless loops. Um, I am not qualified to diagnose you as having codependency in any way, but that describing that is very, very much like what I feel very often. You know, it's like these are, these things are ancient for us. Sometimes they are, are, there's lineage stuff to it.

It's not even, you know, it's, it goes beyond your experience, but at the very least it goes back to before you had words, you know, you know, you were experiencing things and, they're very hard to rewire, but you, you can, you definitely can. now.

Alison: The fact that you tied a musical analogy metaphor into all of this with the, like that, that Hedwig, like there's only so much space. I'm going to be thinking about that for a very long time.

Evan: It, it really is. That was a transformative visual to have. It's like, Oh God, I saw myself so clearly.

Matt: Another thing that was on my, on my mind was [00:42:00] just the, as we've talked about before, we've come a long way, scientists have come a long way to even talk about neurodivergent. These are things that no one talked about, right? Like, even when we were in our twenties, Biv, everybody talked about dysfunctional families, dysfunctional parents.

We're talking about more genetic brain differences, right? And we're learning about, you know, and people are asking, Hey, is everybody autistic now? Well, Maybe, right? Like, and, more importantly, is OCD and ADHD and, codependence and dyslexia, are they all, these are untapped things.

My coach says, like, there's no way to map the brain right now until we figure out how to, like, really be able to do that in the way that would be helpful. We're just going to kind of guess, but one, the other place that that RSD really, really shows up is in [00:43:00] levels of autism,

Alison: Mm hmm.

Matt: Autistic spectrum. And

Evan: Mm

Matt: That could just simply be that could simply mean that Alison and I have, we're on the spectrum, which probably we are if, if they decide ADHD is not really a thing, actually. No, you're, you're on the spectrum of something,

Evan: Hmm.

Matt: Whatever they end up calling it.

Evan: AK, I just wanted to, before I forget this, you had asked me a little while ago, why do I think that I might be, um, on the ADHD spectrum? And that is something that I, I mean, it's not uncommon for a lot of people to experience imposter syndrome, but I do fear judgments. And I'm sensitive to judgment of others, and especially in our work, you know, the only real medicine for me in that regard is to get better at what you do but also to look at your work and to know that it's, you know, no work is ever perfect, but that it's like, okay, this is kick ass. [00:44:00] I believe in myself. But still every, you know, oftentimes, every time I start a new project, there is some moment of God, I suck at this.

Um, so I don't know if this is necessarily exactly RSD, but I do have those feelings.

Matt: Mm

Alison: Armchair Diagnosis.

Evan: Let's go!

Alison: Everything that you're describing is general anxiety disorder. So this excessive worry, um, this both the excessive worry, and then the worry being disportionate to what's in relationship to, is also a, a tenet, uh, a pillar, if you will, of general anxiety disorder. Um. Uh,

Evan: Know all about that.

Alison: But so to, you had asked a question a minute ago about RSD my understanding, again, with RSD is what makes it RSD versus I don't like rejection, which is a human condition.

It's the interpretation of neutral. That's the game changer. And why this is more prevalent in ADHD brains, my understanding is that [00:45:00] our brains, ADHD brains, neuro spicy brains, neurodivergent brains, interpret pain differently. So when we're talking about RSD, it's the interpretation of the signal somebody else is sending, not the anticipation of, that's kind of the crux of this. Um, and so that's why it's more prevalent in people with ADHD, but not exclusive to.

Um, but it sounds like a lot of what you're describing because I came into this going as an OCD is a GAD is ADHD for you, Evan, um, and, and the Venn diagrams and things like what you keep describing over and over again are not compulsions, always, I'm sure we all have some compulsions, but is just worry at just as the wrong word.

Let me not let me not weaken that. Is worry, anxiety and distress over a variety of topics. Sometimes disproportionate to the reality of the situation.

Evan: Okay. I want a second opinion.

Matt: [00:46:00] Biv. I think that's pretty cool.

Evan: I want a second opinion, doc.

Alison: Say someone who is yes, again, not. Not qualified to do this.

Evan: Um, you, you mentioned something a minute ago that I, that I wanted to ask you about. Have you ever heard of the still face experiment? So they, they, they did this experiment where, there's a baby, little baby, infant, and there's like their mom or, or a woman.

Um, there who's like smiling and like, yay, you know, like really engaging with them and you know, smiling. And so the baby's really happy and feels calm and feels accepted and feels that external, uh, love and validation and all of these things that's happening. And then the woman turns away like this and turns back just like blank face, still.

Matt: Just got chills.

Evan: And the child immediately starts crying. But it, like, just to [00:47:00] see the impact of, and I don't really know what it means.

But it just struck me as something, cause you mentioned this a couple of times. Just the impact that we have on each other when you are getting something neutral back, that, that, that the neutrality doesn't mean anything, but you internalize it as, as hate or loathing or, I don't care about you or, you know, dismissal or abandoned abandonment or whatever it is.

All of those things, um, it is, it's pretty shocking. So anyway, go, go watch that video.

Matt: But one one thing my coach says a lot is people with ADHD have whether it's time blindness or or other things or the or this physical pain, emotional pain. The middle of something is always always so hard. Like, I can see the big picture all day. I can dream and dream and dream forever.

And I can I can I have no problem with beginnings. I'm excited to get down to work on something brand new. Uh, like [00:48:00] Like a neutral face. Uh, it's, it's, it's the not knowing. We understand happy. We understand angry. We understand sad.

But anything that's not, maybe falls in the middle.

Evan: Oh, there's so much unknown.

Alison: Wild.

Evan: Wow.

Alison: Do you want to hear real quick, uh, before we sign off of this eight hour episode of ADHd20, the podcast that finds the intersection

Matt: Such a good one.

Alison: all things neuro spicy and all things RPGs, uh, do you want to hear the Venn diagram between ADHD and general anxiety disorder?

Because we have had a lot of people ask about this in our Discord as

Evan: Oh, sure. Yeah.

Alison: So ADHD, often defined as craving novelty and new experiences, may experience anxiety associated with our own ADHD struggles. We have difficulty regulating attention and focus and hyperactivity and impulsivity. Anxiety defined by excessive and uncontrollable worry, experiences anxiety over a variety of things, worry disproportionate to the actual risk or stressor, and then causes significant distress and interference [00:49:00] with school, work, or home life. Where the two meet where we could all play together in the same sandbox. Sleep issues, tires easily, fatigue, difficulty with concentration. Uh, working memory impacted. This is a big one for me and for all of us, I think: intrusive thoughts. Higher rates of GI issues, restlessness, muscle tension. And irritability.

Evan: Interesting, interesting. Those are the things that both groups experience.

Matt: Are we clear?

Evan: Interesting. Interesting. Sleep number is a number one sleep is my Sleep has always been impacted Greatly. Um, yeah, I, I, for, I didn't say this explicitly a while ago when you diagnosed me with GAD that, um, you were not the first person to diagnose me.

Uh, it's been a lifelong, it really, as long as I can remember.

Alison: And a lot of the things on the anxiety, um, side line up for me as well, just so you know that. Let's start a podcast [00:50:00] Evan!

Evan: Yeah, um.

Alison: Sweet, sweet.

Evan: a tweet,

Alison: Yeah.

Evan: GAD 20.

Alison: GAD 20.

Evan: Great.

Alison: Let's go!

Evan: I feel like we didn't talk about any fun stuff. I feel like I came on your podcast. I'm the most boring of all of your guests. If you need to tank this episode, I won't be, I won't be hurt.

Alison: Intrusive thought. Get out of here. Get out of here with that anxiety thought right there. No, sir. This was darling.

Matt: No,

Alison: It's not that we didn't talk about fun subjects. It's that we had a lot of ground to cover to lay, you know, kind of, this is not your first episode. This is not your last. This is your first episode.

This is not your last

Matt: This is your last episode.

Evan: It's my, it's definitely my last,

Matt: This is our last episode.

Alison: This is our last episode.

Evan: Yeah, it's not just my last episode. It's your last episode. Yeah. Um,

Matt: I wanted to look up something, uh, speaking of stuff randomly off [00:51:00] the internet. And, and I looked at seven, because I, I had a therapist once that said, there's really, there can be very good things about anxiety. And again, just, just take that. Taking that. Exactly. So, here's, here's some that not only can I apply to you as a human being, but also, uh, and, and as a business partner, and a friend, uh, and as a creative partner, but also, I could, I see these things in your being a player in the game.

Number one. Motivation. You can motivate. You can, the things that, that should motivate Alison and me, that motivates so many people, money, uh, rewards of any kind, just may not do it. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, never know. But motivation, I am just like, always just stunned at how, how well you can just... Go.

Resilience is a really cool one. [00:52:00] Um, just because you, you just like, it can kind of like, makes you stronger. You, you can be a stronger person. I, I think, I think that's very true. Cautiousness, you could take that either good or bad, but I think cautiousness could definitely, you know, protect you from danger.

And therefore, for those couple of things, longevity, generally. Uh, is a

Evan: You get to suffer for longer in life.

Matt: Suffer. You may be suffering, but you're living longer.

Evan: That's right. You get done.

Matt: That's really cool. Uh, and here's two that I I'd say gameplay. Um, I'll start with you just as a creative force because we we've talked a lot about how we work together business stuff.

Uh, but as an artist, uh, you are a very, very strong leader. You're a very good leader. And, you know, we, we, we want at this point in our careers, we want to take Bivins Brothers Creative. And you and I want to, we all want [00:53:00] to take on more creative director roles. And you are just so freaking strong at that.

It says, uh, you're, you're prepared for crisis when it arrives. Um, you see, you process threats differently. Um, and you take action. Where Alison and I will just be spinning around. You're like, okay, we gotta do this. Or whatever, whatever the impulse is, right? And then empathy, empathy, and I think that I think that sometimes your first reaction might be, Why aren't they doing it the way I need them to, or what it is, but with just, just the five minute break, I watch you go, oh yeah, I understand what you guys are going through and, and that especially as a player, you are such an empathetic player

In all the games we play you, you will, we will build an empath character for you. Uh,

Alison: That's what you were describing with your read. I mean, the fact that you can [00:54:00] kind of siphon in all the energy of the room and feel it, that is literally an empath, Evan.

Evan: Mm hmm.

Matt: And that can be super powerful and you, I, as a game master, I see you as a player like listening and, and you may that your anxiety says that you may walk away and regret the things you say. I am stunned and delighted because I watch you go, uh, like maybe you will come in with, with a good leadership, strong decision.

You'll read the room and then it. You can start some of the most deep or emotional or funny moments we've ever had

Evan: Hmm.

Matt: together.

Evan: Oh geez, you guys.

Alison: I have long said you want to have some fun at D& D, get you an Evan Bivins at your table.

Matt: just

Alison: That is that's the way that is the way. You are the reason that this game has meant this much to me for as long as it has, because from session one, you were just willing and able to freaking go [00:55:00] for it in an unreal way.

And I love that about you. So.

Evan: It's the best man. It's just the best. Damn. Oh, come on now. It's the best game. It's the best. And it, it is a, a form of therapy.

Matt: Well, Evan Bivins, uh, I've been proud to know you for my whole life, uh, and proud that you're my brother, and,

Evan: Same brother,

Matt: proud that you're glad that you were on this podcast.

I

Evan: wouldn't be me without you

Matt: Same.

Evan: yeah, I love you,

Matt: I love you, too.

Evan: Love you too, AK

Okay.

Alison: love

Matt: you, too. Thank you.

Alison: Both of you, a whole lot.

Evan: Yeah.

/ Alright, you guys ready to get engaged?

Matt: Thank you.

Alison: Yes.

Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

Alison: I choose me.

Evan: Yes, girl!

Matt: I want another ring. I want a ring like yours too.

Alison: I know my hands are nakey. I should fix that.

Evan: Yeah,

Matt: it. Put a ring on it. There you

Alison: I

like it. So I think I'll put a ring on it.

Matt: Go. [00:56:00] There you go. There you go.

Uh, well, yes.

Alison: Thank you, Matt and Evan, the Brothers Bivins for being on my podcast.

Evan: Ha, ha, ha! Nice!

Matt: Thank you, Alison.

Evan: Letting me be on your podcast, Alison.

Matt: Thank you for being on my podcast too.

Evan: It's weird to be signing off here and not hearing the music. Bonk

Matt: Thank you for listening and being a part of our ADHd20 family. If you're looking for more, we'd love to see you in our public Discord server. Look for the link in our show notes and come join the chatter about all things TTRPG and ADHD, but also TV, music, pretty much anything on our minds.

Alison: We also have a Patreon where you can get access to bonus content and outtakes, be the first to hear new episodes, join us for live streamed recording sessions, and even play Dungeons and Dragons with us and our friends.

Matt: The best way you can help us though, is just to share this podcast [00:57:00] with people you think will like it.

Alison: Thank you for being a pal! To us as people, to ADHd20 the podcast, and to the greater Bivins Brothers Creative Commonwealth of Nerds.