AK: Today on ADHD20

Matt: The podcast that finds the
intersection between ADHD and...

AK: TTRPGs.

We're going to talk about a
subject that we can't pronounce.

Catastrophizing.

See, I can't do it.

Catastrophizing.

Catastrophizing.

That's what we're going to
talk about today on ADHd20.

Matt: Hi, Alison.

AK: Hi Matt!

How are you?

Matt: How are you?

Where did you come from?

Where have you been all my life?

We're going to talk about a little
concept called Catastrophizing.

Whoops, that's right.

AK: Yeah,

I think you did

catastrophizing.

That's what we're going
to talk about today.

I'm, I'm excited.

But before we do that, I think
you need to roll me a D100, sir.

Matt: I would love to.

AK: If you can

Matt: So much I'd love to.

Roll the

AK: sound.

Show us.

What are, what are you
rolling today, Matt?

I always Show my

dice off.

You

need to show

Matt: gonna roll some, I'm gonna roll
some, uh, what I call the Big Daddy.

It's not actually a chunky one,
it is a, but it is heavy as sin.

This is a, this is a die that my
friends, uh, uh, Alison and Fitz gave me.

Ah, and it is heavy.

AK: It does.

Matt: All right.

Oh, I'm rolling the wrong

Oh

AK: you throw a d20?

Matt: my god!

It's a catastrophe!

I sure did!

AK: The podcast is over.

Everybody hates us.

Matt: Oh my goodness.

I rolled a 36.

AK: That is a beautiful, beautiful number.

Interesting.

So this is one that we asked Evan, but
that you and I did not get to answer.

Shall we go for it and share?

Matthew, what's the
story behind your name?

Matt: Oh, Oh, we didn't?

Yeah, I didn't answer this.

Uh, the story behind my name
is, is very interesting.

Uh, my mother was a, uh, church going
rebel in that she switched from

the Southern Baptist Church to the
Episcopal Church, which was such a,

a scandalous thing that happened.

So mom, mom just, she, she had this
new love for this church and it was

part of the, it was the church too, and
the people in it and her best friend

was there and so on and so forth.

And I think she just kind of,
she loved the story of Matthew.

She loved the book of
Matthew and she, she just.

It was, uh, I don't know, it just,
it just meant a lot to her, the,

the concept of it and just his tale.

So, uh, her first born
child named after St.

Matthew.

AK: Matthew McNabb.

Matt: Yes.

How about you, Alison?

AK: Well, uh, Alison was not
my originally intended name.

My mom, uh, like all mothers in
the 80s, wanted to name me Megan.

I was gonna be Megan
Lindsay, and my dad said...

Nah, don't like it.

Uh, and then they didn't have a
name for me for a very long time.

And then I guess sometime right before I
was born, Alison just came out of nowhere.

There is no good story to my name.

Not only did she give me a name that
meant nothing to anybody in my family,

uh, she didn't spell it right either.

And I have spent all 41 of my
years so far harassing her.

It was hard like in the 90s going to like
little vacation towns that I could never

buy like the keychains and the tchotchkes
with my name on them because If they

didn't have one L'ed Alisons in there.

Yeah, Alison means, uh,
Little Truthful One.

Um, I am rather blunt,
I feel like, sometimes.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: Yeah, those are those are our names.

That's what you can call us.

Matt the Rat and AK.

You know, my favorite part
about my, my initials are ALK.

You can't spell talk without ALK.

Matt: Oh man, that's good.

That's real good.

Um, but that does, that does remind me
of this thing that my grandfather used to

say, which it was my favorite thing ever.

It is a, it is a real poem.

Uh, but he used to call me
Matt the rat, the cat's meat

AK: Cat's meat man.

Matt: Yeah.

Even I

AK: know that story!

Matt: Horrific.

I know I know, but I loved that.

I loved that whole thing.

I thought I was so
special to my grandfather.

I know.

I was like, gross, but awesome.

AK: Gross but endearing.

This is a grandfather way.

Matt: Why would a

rat be a cat's meat?

Anyway.

AK: because you're meat that the cats eat.

You're the cat's meat.

It's freaking all down here.

Matt: Anyway, yeah, let's break it down.

AK: One of my favorite things about
this podcast are that all my friends

who listen to this podcast now, both
to my text messages and to our Discord,

just like to send little snippets.

Saw this, made me think of you.

And I love that.

So my friend Taryn, who I have
known since college, a fellow ADHDer

herself, uh, sent me a snippet
from, there's a writer and activist

that Taryn and I both, uh, follow.

Uh, her name is Ijeoma Oluo,
and she is phenomenal and has so

much to say, and we've both been
following her for a few years.

So she is a very prolific writer, she's
an activist, and she has ADHD, so I

have a lot of common threads with her.

Um, and so, Taryn sent me the screen
grab from one of her Substack articles

recently, talking about how she navigates
life with a neurotypical partner,

because that's what a lot of people have
questions for, is what's it like to live

with somebody with ADHD or to have ADHD?

Anyways, So, so in earlier in the article,
she was talking about how expansive

our creativity and imagination can be.

"Okay, so you know how I said that
ADHD brains can just make all of

these wild and amazing and sometimes
beautiful connections, and that this

can make us very creative people?

Well, the same creativity can
lead to some of the most extreme,

catastrophizing you've ever seen.

It's not just that our brains can think
of really amazing disaster opportunities.

It's also that we lack the executive
function to be able to prioritize

these disaster opportunities
according to what is most likely

to happen and what might have a one
in a million chance of happening."

And like that, that is so me to a T.

I spent so much of my life
defaulting to worst case scenario.

And not even realizing that
that was a symptom of my ADHD

until very, very recently.

And it's become a practice now to
get out of that, that default stance.

And honestly, to, you know,
issue a constant challenge of

what's the best that can happen?

And so I mentioned this to you, and
you were like, Oh, boy, I do that too.

Um, And one other thing from this
piece before we move on, just

because I will share it in the
show notes, because I think it's a

really beautiful work that everybody
interested in this topic should read.

But one of the other really just poignant
things that she said is, she said, "Our

tank only holds like >one gallon of fuel."

I love that framing about what executive
dysfunction can really feel like.

At our core, as neurodivergent
people, we're all trying to

go the same distance, right?

But the way that our brains
are wired actually requires

us to stop and start more.

Matt: Mm

hmm.

Ugh.

Ugh.

Gross.

But yes.

AK: So, you know, kind of leading
into today's topic, what is, what

is catastrophizing even mean?

Um, and so I did, you know, you know,
how I like to take these things and

do like a little bit of research to
see if we're on our own and we're not.

It's apparently a very common
Tenet, Trait, Symptom, Outcome,

whatever of the ADHD brain.

It's also linked to
anxiety and depression.

Um,

Matt: Mm

AK: and all that it means is that
we fixate on the worst possible

outcome and treat it as highly
likely even when it is not.

Guilty.

Matt: Mm

AK: And then the article goes on to say
that "…catastrophic thinking can also be

exacerbated by differences or changes in
brain chemistry, learning it as a coping

mechanism from family members or people
close to you, using it as a response to

one or more traumatizing life events or
experiences, or simply chronic pain or

fatigue, that we've experienced these
worst possible outcomes once somewhere in

our lives, something went wrong, and then
it just becomes our, again, our default.

We keep going back to it."

Matt: Yeah.

AK: I just talked a lot.

It's your turn now,

Matt.

Matt: I, I, just have, I just have so
many thoughts and, and realizations and...

And honestly, I'm just, I'm just
awash with the feeling of, oh,

thank goodness I'm not alone.

I love this, I love this, uh, chunk, where
she says okay, everybody talks about not

liking taxes, they don't like flossing,
these are normal things, uh, and, and

these are, they're, they're things that
neurotypical people don't like that are

so normalized that we've built a great way
to outsource to eliminate these things,

and, and we talked about one of these
last week which was Procrastination.

But then she goes on
about saying pumping gas.

I do hate pumping gas, but
here's, here's the amazing thing.

Going to the bank and cashing your check.

Who hates putting money in the bank?

She does.

"And it's easy to feel broken,"
she says, "when the things that you

struggle with are the things that
nobody else seems to struggle with."

I mean, I just have so many of those.

I mean, my inability to
go to the post office is

AK: Same.

Matt: Monumental.

Monumental.

Okay, my similar, my similar bank
thing is I'm sitting on gear,

AK: hmm.

Mm

Matt: number one, would
make someone else happy,

would, would make me richer, would
clean up my office, which is always a

stress, I mean years, Alison, years.

I don't know if it'll ever happen.

I, I mean it is, and it doesn't,
when I, when I try to explain this

to anybody else, they're like, what?

But it's so true, and it is, I, here, I
don't know what the catastrophe is though.

That's the weird...

That's a weird thing.

It's like, like why?

What did I, what happened?

What happened along the way that made me
hate going to the post office, that made

me hate selling things to this degree?

What, what was it that burned me so bad?

AK: So when we were first talking about
this episode earlier in the week, deciding

if we wanted to do this topic and we
started to say, you know, first of all,

like, how could we tie this into D&D?

Do do this?

Does this resonate?

Does this ring any bells, um, for us?

I think the catastrophe in this is,
I mentioned to you that I think that

catastrophizing is, if not a sister,
then at least a cousin of RSD.

Matt: hmm.

Mm hmm Mm

AK: It's thing that we do that causes
people in our lives who do not understand,

who do not have executive dysfunction,
um, whose executive functions beautifully.

Congratulations, must be nice.

It causes them to look at us and
go, why are you being so dramatic?

So There's answer number one.

Like, we have, we have attached these
feelings of less than because of our

inability to, you know, see the forest for
the trees, to figure out the steps needed.

Because as you talked about so
beautifully last week, it's not as

simple as go to the post office, right?

First of all, you have to
gather all of the things.

You have to find boxes
to put the things in.

You have to figure out
how much is this worth.

You have to list it somewhere.

You're going to have to answer
somebody's dumb, boring questions about

the thing that you're trying to sell.

You're going to then have to figure out a
price and how you're going to exchange it.

Are you going to ship it?

Are you going to meet them?

Like there's all of these micro
steps involved in a neurotypical

is like, yeah, you just do them.

But anytime that you have to use
the word just, it's probably a

signal that you're potentially
talking down to a neurospicy type.

We don't just do anything.

And so, you know, so I think RSD and
catastrophizing are definitely related.

And I also think to answer your
question about what happened, what

is caused this trauma for response
for both of us, I think it can

also be attached to time blindness.

I don't like to go to the bank because
the bank is only open during normie

hours, and I don't like to walk
away from my desk, A, because you're

going to rip out my hyper focus.

It always takes longer than
you think it's going to.

You have to interact
with other human beings.

Some of them are mean.

Uh, you're going to get back later.

Then, and then we have to go through
all of these motions of like getting

back into whatever rhythm and groove
we interrupted to do this task.

We know we're not going to.

So now the day is basically over.

Cause I chose to go to the post office
at one o'clock after I ate my lunch.

And, and, and this is an
example of like my action.

I'm telling you guys right
now, my thought process.

And I know anybody without this
is going, what is the big deal?

But that is exactly
what catastrophizing is.

Something that seems simple,
innocuous, small, that I have now

made worst case scenario in my head
without even realizing or meaning

to, and then also fixating on it.

And.

even though the outcome is not likely.

What is probably likely is I will gather
my bills, I will go to the post office, I

will wait in line, I will pay for them to
send whatever, and then I'll come home.

Matt: It's fine.

That's it.

That's

AK: it.

Matt: It's totally, totally fine.

Oh, yes.

Uh, I, I feel like we've talked
about this, but how, how,

AK: Oh I no

Matt: how many times do you look at a
calendar on Sunday and, and I'm trying to

get better and better and better of weekly
ahead things and, and I look at the stuff

and I try to like, This is stuff that I've
learned from Coach to where like, okay,

you know, I put it in multiple places.

Have I saved my calendar, which is where
it has to be first or doesn't exist.

And then I take it into my task
manager and I write it out again,

write it out again so that I can so
I can say, OK, don't be surprised.

Don't be surprised.

There's something in the middle.

But man, when I see those days and
there's like something after or during,

I just get so depressed sometimes.

Hanging out with friends
and having a drink.

So depressed sometimes.

I don't, it's just insane.

It feels insane because
It just feels insane.

Going, you know, going
to get teeth cleaned.

Of course, that one is more
understandable, but it's not

because I'm afraid to get my
teeth cleaned or I don't like it.

It is what you just mentioned.

It's because it's going to
completely destroy that day.

Beginning of it, to the end of it.

Gone.

Just.

Gone.

AK: Completely Destroy?

Matt, I think you're
being a little dramatic.

Matt: Exactly!

I'm catastrophizing!

I wish I had a...

right?

AK: So I had, I had a, uh,
an interesting weekend.

It was not a restful weekend.

It was a weekend where there was
a lot of fun, but it was a weekend

where I was surrounded by people 24 7.

I had no alone time except for
in the bathroom, and that is

just not enough for me anymore.

I am a girl who needs to shut the
fuck up, and sit still and alone.

And people that surprises people,
but that's how I am now, y'all.

Last night, I was supposed to go
meet with some people from college

because I had agreed to help
plan our 20 year class reunion.

Matt.

I didn't want to go to this one meeting.

So badly.

I wrote.

Matt: That is amazing.

That is amazing.

And I love it.

And I totally understand it.

Oh

AK: My little ADHD brain could
not, could not people and turned

that into not only can I not people
tonight, but I just can't do this.

Relatively frictionless, low, you
know, I loved where I went to college.

I love the people that
I went to college with.

It is how I met some of my best friends
that are still in my life to this day.

I look forward to our 20 year reunion.

I'm lucky enough to still live in
the place where I went to college,

so I still get to be plugged in.

Like, I have no bad feelings, but
because my brain could not get over the

roadblock of, I don't want to go tonight,
I had to drop off the whole thing.

Why are we like this?

Matt: I love it.

I love it though.

AK: Thank you for your support.

Matt: That's the other side of it,
it's like, if, the reason I laughed

so hard about what you just said is
that I completely understand it, where

I would absolutely understand someone
else hearing it and say, Then why did

you even sign up for that, Alison?

Why did you?

If you hate it so much that one meeting,
the thought of one meeting would cause

you to back away, that's the other part.

That is Ijeoma's number two
on this list, which is...

We actually really, truly do want
to do the things that we promised

to do, that we signed up to do.

It's not, it's not lip service.

It is not lip service.

There's an excitement that we get for
that thing at that time, at that moment.

We're like, oh yeah, oh my
God, that'd be so great.

I could be involved.

I could really make it my own.

It could be really fun.

I could hang out with this friends.

That doesn't change.

It's just that the moment goes away.

And then you, then you, there's realism
sitting in, and you're like, I don't have

time for that, and I don't want to do
that, and if that sucks, help, get me out.

I can only imagine that you were
catastrophizing all day until you finally

just said, I gotta quit this whole thing.

I get it.

I get it.

AK: Hmm.

Matt: Oh my gosh.

And it's, do you find
that you go in waves?

Of being better and worse of that.

I, I feel like I definitely do.

Where I, but for me, it's,
it's so black and white.

It's so like, it's either
like everything or nothing.

It's

AK: Mm hmm.

Matt: like everything or nothing.

It's like this, this I'll,
I'll play on this album.

I'll do this improv thing.

I'll, I'll have this gig.

I'll take this.

Uh.

Or, I CAN'T TAKE ANY OF
IT, ALL OF IT HAS TO GO

AK: I quit everything

Matt: Everything.

quits.

Everything.

Yuck.

AK: Yep.

It's, it's definitely the place.

I think I've gotten so much better than
I used to be, to answer your question.

Um, I, I, I used to be
this way about everything.

Everything was a spiral.

Everything was worst case scenario.

I love the word fixate
in the definition of it.

It's not just imagining
worst possible outcome.

It is your fixation.

It is, intense is, and of course, all of
the articles are like, eat well, get eight

hours of sleep, exercise regularly, as
their, you know, ways to not, and there's,

there obviously, and we've talked about
this a lot before, there is truth in that.

The better, you know, rested we can be,
the more we take our long rests and eat

our vegetables, the better our bodies are
going to feel and the better our bodies

and minds feel, the more apt we are going
to be to doing the things, you know,

Matt: Mm

AK: There I go, catastrophizing at
this explanation, because I'm like,

well, this means if I eat pizza and
don't exercise, then I'm going to

quit everything and life is over.

Matt: hmm.

You're gonna quit
everything and you're gonna

AK: Just know, everybody, if and when
the day comes that this here podcast

comes to an end, it's because Alison
catastrophized it to its death.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: One day, she didn't want to
record and it was all over after that.

Matt: Yes.

Yes.

I, I feel bad, I find myself feeling
bad when the, when the tornado

of catastrophe kind of passes by.

I, I feel bad for people like
our loved ones surrounding us.

A lot of times.

How about, do you feel the same?

Like, I'm like, oh my god, I took Lindsay
on this major roller coaster ride.

And she was, you know, she's just
trying to help me feel better.

And, you know, and that's just
because she's an amazing person, but.

I, I still feel bad because I'm like,
yeah, I know that it was ridiculous.

I know it was ridiculous,
but it is what it is.

When you suggested this topic,
my first question was, well, how

would you apply this to Dungeons
and Dragons and or TTRPGs, Alison?

AK: Everybody has heard me tease Matt
endlessly about killing my characters.

You know, I, I couldn't

Matt: It's a big deal.

AK: It's a big deal.

I couldn't play D&D this past weekend.

And when a member of a party can't
play D&D, for all of you who don't

play, you know, you have a few options.

You either just kind of like, oop,
they got a messenger in the night

and, you know, apparated somewhere
else, they'll be back soon.

You can pretend that they just
don't exist for that session.

But with our group, a lot of the
time, we'll just have somebody

do what's called Jaegering our
character for the for the day.

So I don't actually know what y'all
did y'all did somebody Jaeger me on

Sunday?

Transcribed

Matt: Half heartedly, but yes.

Kind of

AK: And there's always this knee jerk
reaction of like, you're, cause you

have to kind of give people consent
to play your character, right?

Like, yes, you can go into my sheet
and, and play Chimerical for a day.

Um, don't kill her.

It's me catastrophizing.

And I mean, it is the, it is the swell
in the throat we get every time Matt says

those faithful words, roll initiative.

Right?

There we go.

Come all you faithful.

Um,

Matt: Faithful and fateful.

AK: and fateful.

Um, that we all, like, I think
all of us as players do kind of

get this sinking, you know, in our
throat, um, of like, is this it?

Is this how my character goes?

But it doesn't stop us
from playing the game.

It, you know, and obviously, yes, we're
talking about fantasy versus reality

now, but like, it's almost like in D&D,
And other TTRPGs, um, that it's, there's

some high you get from it, like, but I
could die, you know, that like, you know,

like, it causes this like, adrenaline
rush in game and it could be like a

dopamining thing in game, whereas in
life, it's more of like a rush of like,

you know, cortisol, like where you, you
know, get shaky and wired and things

like that and almost feel imbalanced.

I almost wonder if the adrenaline
and dopamine and serotonin and

everything else rush that we get
catastrophizing in D& D is the therapy.

Because, you know, Matt,
it's not lost on me that I

This is interesting.

Matt: Yeah,

AK: began the plight of like,
what's the best that can happen?

Matt: Yes

AK: Like, what if I just like, shut
the fuck up and enjoyed my life?

I'm saying fuck a lot this episode.

You're gonna be using beep button.

Matt: Great

AK: You're welcome.

But I do, I have to wonder if there's
a parallel between when I stopped

worrying so much and just started
having fun, like, just got into,

I mean, it's play therapy, right?

It's fun for the sake of fun.

It's this, it's everything that
we've always talked about about.

It's this great way to get to know your
people and yourself and stuff like that.

And it was in doing that,
you know, Chimerical did die.

That is the worst that
could happen, right?

But we were playing in a
fantasy game, so she didn't.

So she was brought back.

And now, Now she's cool.

And I think, I mean, ultimately for me,
if you really just, you know, for any of

you guys listening to this, you saw the
topic and we're like, great, hopefully

they tell us how to get out of it.

This is the advice that I now
have to dispense upon you.

You have to find a way, you have
to find a way to start training

yourself to thinking about all the
times it went right in your life.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: And everybody's, but that's not how
I work when I'm panicking, I know, I'm

aware of that, because I wasn't either.

I literally, at various points in
my life, have had to cover my house

and my mirrors in sticky notes.

I've talked about this before, that
remind me to pause, to take a breath.

So that way, when I start spinning
out, you know, there were times when

every time Matt would Slack me and be
like, Hey, Alison, you got a minute.

In my head, I would be
like, Matt hates me.

He's gonna fire me from working with him.

He doesn't want to be my friend anymore.

It's so dumb, like I understand
telling you this is so dumb, but

that's what my brain did to me.

Matt: I know.

AK: A lot of times when you were like,
first of all, a lot of times when

you said, Hey, Alison, got a minute,
you want to tell me something good?

Or you just wanted the chance
to like, you know, make sure you

weren't like interrupting a train
of thought is all you meant.

Matt: Yeah.

Yes.

I mean, I think you kind of did it
yesterday where we were talking about, you

know, just your, all the great things that
you've been doing in the the last year

and the and the wonderful spirituality
that you've you've been discovering and

how you're making stronger choices for
friends and you're, you're doing this

stuff and you said, but but don't think
that you're going to get out of this.

You're, you're there for life.

I'm like, yeah, I know, I,
that's not even a part of, that

doesn't even cross my mind.

That's not even a, uh, yeah, no,
I get, yeah, it actually happens.

You want to know one of my
catastrophizing D&D things, TTRPG

things, is prepping, actually sometimes.

AK: hmm.

Matt: And, and it is, you know,
comparatively, compared to like a website

that has to be launched and the client is
really, awful or whatever, it's very low.

And I am more confident about.

You know, being a game master in a lot of
ways than I am other things in my life.

But there are times where I'm just
really, I'm just not prepared.

And I'm just like, so
disappointed about that.

I'm like, Oh man, they're just
going to be standing around.

And I just feel so bad for
them and they deserve better.

And I just, why didn't I just
spend five minutes a day prepping?

Why did I wait the last minute?

I just, why, why, why?

You know, and then we, and then we.

You know, then we start playing and,
and I did, you know, I know what I'm

doing and I went to improv school

AK: Yep.

Matt: and I make stuff up and, you know, I
don't, you probably know when I'm more or

less prepared, but it doesn't necessarily
mean that you're having a bad time,

AK: No, not at

all.

Matt: my in my mind, of

AK: And we also know we're
gonna break, we're gonna break

the stuff you build anyway.

So there's this part of me
that's like, Matt, don't,

Matt: Sometimes,

AK: please don't spend a lot of time.

We're gonna mess it up.

Not

you.

Matt: yeah, I don't
have a choice sometimes.

Sometimes I just go, oh, we're off
roading, we're off roading, ding

a da ding a ding a ding a ding.

AK: So, to use a D&D term, um, if you
would like, I can kind of walk, and I

would love it if you would also like to
do this, we can walk through the mechanics

of how we save from catastrophizing.

When someone casts catastrophe
on, on me, this is now exact, I

will tell you exactly what I do.

And, and it's, it looks different now
than it did six months ago in a year.

It's, it's all a practice.

So the first thing I did once I
reckon, I mean, the first The first

step for any problem that you might
want to fix, if you think this is

a problem, maybe you like that you
catastrophize, I don't know, um, is, but

for me, I recognize it was a problem.

I recognized that it was creating
unhealthy relationships, that Matt

and Evan didn't want to constantly
have to pick crying Alison up

off the floor, worried that they
might have stopped loving her.

It's annoying when I do it.

So I wanted, I wanted to fix it.

I wanted to have confidence in
myself and in my relationships

that we were all on the same page.

So that was step one.

Identify the problem.

Step two, I made a mechanic of every
time I found myself, I set the intention

that I would notice when I do it.

Every time I noticed when I did it,
I would allow myself to think through

that, that worst possible outcome.

Matt says he wants to talk to me.

Worst possible scenario here
is that Matt's like, Hey,

this just isn't working out.

I don't want to do
podcasts with you anymore.

I don't want to play D&D with you anymore.

Let's pump the brakes on this friendship.

Best case scenario is that Matt has
some tremendously good news to share.

Somebody reached out to him and wants
to pay us millions of dollars to

keep doing exactly what we're doing.

that's the best case scenario.

So I would allow myself to
think through the worst case.

I would then imagine the
possibilities for the best case.

And then I would pay attention to history.

I would think about all the times in
my friendship with Matt that he said,

Hey, 9,000 times out of 9,001 times.

I'm bad at this.

Matt usually had something like,
Hey, can you look at this with me?

I want to make sure that I got this right.

Hey, can you brainstorm this with me?

Matt: Oh no,

AK: I would recognize that
what was probably got to happen

was somewhere in the middle.

It probably was not the worst case.

It probably was not the best case.

It was probably a completely normal case.

And I had to do that for
like a solid six months.

Every time I found myself catastrophizing,
I had to stop and go through those steps.

And I still, as we've just now talked
about, still fall on bad habits sometimes.

I'm not perfect at it, but it's so much
better than it was a couple of years

ago, where I was just in this constant
flushed panic mode all the time about

everything in perpetuity until I die.

Matt: So that, so the spell is,
Catastrophize, it's probably,

Um, you know, the range would be
five feet at most, if not touch.

And the save would be Wisdom.

AK: Hmm.

Matt: It's not an
intelligent thing, obviously.

It's not an Intelligence thing.

It has to be Wisdom.

So that is, uh, but I would say,
I would say that the good news

is it's probably a cantrip, which

AK: Mm hmm.

Mm

Matt: it means that if you do
save Wisdom, then there is no

AK: There is no damage.

I don't have to worry about half damage.

You're very, very right about that.

Yes.

I love it.

Matt: Yeah, me too.

Hmm.

AK: I love that we're figuring
these parts of our brains out.

Do you have any mechanics for what
you do when you are starting to spin?

Putting you on the spot here now.

Matt: I have friends that I vent to you,
you being one of them sometimes, you know,

and, and that, I don't know if that's
the healthiest way to, I'm going to go

ahead and say, I don't know that that's
the healthiest way to deal with things.

I do meditate.

That does help.

And I'm not, not, look, I'm
not a consistent meditator.

I'm not a But it really
actually helps, actually helps.

So, going outside and taking a
walk, unfortunately also works.

AK: Why are the healthy
things the things work?!

Matt: I hate it!

AK: Why does my body feel better
when I eat a salad instead of a taco?

Mm

hmm.

Matt: I, Jesus, I don't know.

Uh, and then yeah, just surrounding
yourself with, with great friends

that are like, okay, uh, surrounding
yourself with rocks, like my wife

and, uh, my brother and just like
people who are, who are just.

Okay, okay, I hear you and I'm I, I'm
not discounting your emotions, but what if

it wasn't quite as, and you have to have
a, you have to have a few of them, right?

Lindsay, of course, is, I think, currently
the best because, you know, she knows,

she has moments of this as well, in
her own way, in her own brain, uh, very

different catastrophes in her brain.

So now that we have learned these
things, we give each other space,

uh, to feel that, those feelings, but
then kind of say, you know, but, you

know, there's this and this and this
and this, so, um, getting yourself a

pack of, a pack of friends that can
help you through that is also great.

AK: What about a pack of kobolds?

Could they

Matt: Pack of kobolds.

If those kobolds had that kind of.

You know, kind of a, preternatural
empathy sympathy combo.

AK: Three, three kobolds and a trench
coat on its way to fixing everything.

You just, you just said
something that sparked,

Matt: Joy?

AK: Always, everything you
say sparks joy, Matthew.

Um, but, I think another important part,
and we've talked about this a lot, I

think ever since Evan's episode is the
practice of kind of radical empathy and

self compassion, especially with yourself.

We talked about this last week with
procrastination that beating yourself up.

I see a lot in my spiritual practice
in the various groups that I've been

moving through lately, where basically
people want to be high vibe all the time.

Um, that's called a
spirit or maybe a robot.

It doesn't exist in human form.

Nobody is high vibe all of the time.

And so if that's your goal, that's
like me saying to you, Matt,

I want to be perfect at D&D.

The perfect is not, it's a game.

It's all subjective.

Life, you're not going to be perfect.

It's going to be messy.

Um, so if you're looking for something
spotless, like, you know, you're,

you're barking up the wrong tree, right?

So I think the biggest thing there too, is
when you notice yourself catastrophizing,

beating yourself up for doing it is
only going to just trigger and now

we're going around the hamster wheel.

Matt: Yeah.

AK: Um, so see those human thoughts.

It's the same thing with meditation.

Like when I used to be really, I
used to beat myself up because I was

bad at meditating because I would
have thoughts because I'm a human.

I have a brain.

I can't turn it off.

It's not how it works.

I don't power down into stasis, right?

Um, but learning that the practice of
meditation is not quieting or quitting

your thoughts, but just saying,

I see

you.

Matt: hmm,

AK: I see you.

Um,

and I

Matt: Yeah.

It's nothing to do with silence,
nothing to do with quiet.

In fact, I think it's
the complete opposite.

It's, it's a rushing river.

Uh, but yes, that you watch, that
you watch, that's a stream that you

watch go by and you're very aware,
but you're letting it go its own way.

Uh.

Yeah, I would like to also apologize
to past relationships that I've

had, that, that in my mind, some
of my behavior now is based on uh,

the actions that they would take.

I'm not saying those
actions were good or bad.

But one, another thing, another
part of this is like the, the, the

times where I react to something
that my friends say, quote, unquote,

because of that past relationship.

No, no, no, no, no.

That's all me.

That's all in here.

It's simply, some people react that way
and some people don't react that way

and it's not their fault and it's going
to, my brain's going to do it anyway.

So, it's just dumb.

Just, yeah, just get, get yourself right.

I will all be better.

AK: And then Matt became a leprechaun.

Matt: And then became a leprechan..

Um, yeah, this was, uh, this was great.

I, I know that we didn't, we
didn't solve any, any issues today,

but I don't think that there is.

I think it, that's not
what it's about today.

I think it's about,

um,

let's share

some experiences.

AK: all do

it.

Matt: Yeah, give yourself a break.

Give yourself a break.

If you are catastrophizing right
now as you're listening to this,

uh, you know, live with it.

But, but it, it's okay.

Honestly, it's a hundred percent okay.

Um,

AK: If you're catastrophizing right
now while listening to this, Try one

of the saves that we have taught you.

Matt: Yeah.

Give your, yeah.

You need, you, you still,
you deserve a Wisdom

AK: Yeah, go for a walk, get
outside, touch, touch the ground.

You know, that's something that is the
very beginning of the season, Matt.

We had our good friend Sarah Mobley on

Matt: Yeah.

AK: and she said that one of
her things is she goes outside

and she touches the ground.

It's not enough just to get outside.

She touches nature and I, I have,
I've kept that with me all year long.

Matt: Yeah.

Do you do it?

AK: Yeah,

I try and start my mornings.

Apparently, it's very helpful
for our circadian rhythms.

Matt: And, and inflammation

AK: And inflammation.

So I try and go outside, go for a little
walk in the loop in front of my house.

And if not, worst case, even if I
don't feel like doing that, I go

try and enjoy my cup of coffee.

And literally I reach out and I
touch the ground every morning.

Like, so go try that.

Or if you're catastrophizing
right now, stop, go ahead and

allow yourself to imagine and
observe the worst case scenario.

Challenge yourself to think about
what is the best possible outcome.

Recognize that history has taught
you you're gonna land somewhere

in the middle more than likely.

And that's the other thing too, I
think, and I've shared this before,

you know, I think through times that,
like, my proverbial bottom did drop

out, like, what did that feel like?

And realizing, like, the earth
kept turning, it didn't spin off

its axis because I had a bad week.

You know, I, I was late paying
rent earlier this year, and that

for me was my worst case scenario.

I don't ever want to be in a
place where I can't pay my rent.

Guess what I did?

I, I, I paid my rent late with a fee and
apologized to my landlord, and everybody

woke up the next morning just fine.

Matt: Exactly.

So, if you're listening to this and
you're catastrophizing, and you,

you've, you've had your Wisdom saving
throw, and you failed it, and you're

still freaking, that's also okay.

We're not going to be able to
necessarily help you through this

catastrophe, but the next time you will
have gained a little bit of a level.

AK: You've leveled up.

Matt: So, you know, so you could probably.

You know, add a bonus to
the next catastrophe Wisdom

roll, just saying, hopefully.

AK: And if you're listening
to this and you haven't come

and played TTRPGs with us yet.

What are you doing man?

Matt: What are we

AK: That is our that is our catastrophe.

Why you aren't playing games with us yet.

Matt: That's true.

That's true.

We don't talk about that enough.

We, we, uh, you know, if you're still
listening, thanks for listening.

We like you.

So, you want to come hang out
with us and play games with us?

This is something that we do.

Uh, we, we have a Patreon.

We have a Discord server.

And in those two things,
we play games together

AK: I love our little Discord channel.

I love hearing what resonates
with people and what works for

them and what's not working.

There are people out there
that are not going to tell you

you should just do something.

They're not going to call you dramatic.

They're going to see you
and meet you where you are.

Keep on hunting until
you find those people.

And if we can be those people
for you, that's pretty cool.

Matt: Uh, mean it's a win-win.

Wow.

We have so much love for

for people listening today,

AK: I love that joyful rampage.

I love that, that, I love that attitude
of gratitude we close with, Mattie.

Add

Matt: Wow, Attitude with Gratitude.

Love that.

Mm hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

It really, I mean, it, it really,
truly, uh, made me so grateful that,

uh, that you came on my podcast.

AK: Thank you for having
me on your podcast,

Matt: And, and it made me so,
feel so lucky that you had...

me on your

podcast.

I

AK: do feel lucky every time you
gracefully appear on my podcast.

Matt: It's graceful.

There's some grace sometimes.

AK: Hail Matthew, full of grace.

Saint Matthew.

A couple years ago is not even
a gag gift as a real gift.

I, I actually had, I had a St.

Matthew candle made for Matt.

It's one of the greatest gifts I've
ever, I meant it, it was not a gag gift.

Matt: it's, it's deeply embarrassing
to me and yet it's, it's prominently

placed over, over in my kitchen,
over the sink, so I look at that, so,

AK: You

Matt: it's great.

AK: are our little St.

Matthew.

I appreciate you.

Matt: And, wow, what a perfect,
freakin comeback to the

beginning of the show, dude!

Oh ho!

Saint Matthew gettin on the candle!

AK: We make a good team.

I think we should keep this up.

I'm not catastrophizing the end of ADHd20.

getting started.

Matt: You have a minute,

I really need to talk
to you about something.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Good stuff.

Yay!

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