Matt: So one thing that I could talk
about this week is the emotional

element to…like the that feeling of
overwhelm and how people with ADHD

can take it so freaking personally.

Uh, I can actually fit
this into D&D as well.

Alison: I think you and I might
be on the same page about what we

both wanted to speak about today.

I feel like I came in low energy and down,
which made me not want to record a podcast

today because of course you only want to
be happy and peppy and in a good mood.

But isn't that the spirit in
which we've started this whole

thing is like the raw, real side?

And it's not all happy,
peppy, butterflies.

Matt: We don't want it all peppy
or happy and all that stuff.

We don't want it all of that.

Alison: You're going to get slightly
grumpy, Alison and Matt today.

So let's party.

Matt: Yeah, let's party.

Alison: Grumpily.

Matt: Yeah, so.

this week has been.

With ADHD, I have discovered that
things can be upsetting and I'm

not even truly aware of them.

I'm certainly aware of them and
give them the credit, but sometimes

they affect, everything that I
do more than I'm even aware of.

For example, I certainly have
a lot on my plate right now.

I have a lot of things.

I've got a theater contingency
that wants captions built, I've

got to train a captioner, cause I,
I want to move away from some of

that work just for my own sanity.

And.

So like wrangling people.

I feel like I'm wrangling people a lot.

And then, day-to-day work.

Client work.

and then there's fun work of
course, Dungeons & Dragons.

It is.

It's all important and good, but if
there's any kind of wrench thrown in

there, then I don't just feel overwhelmed.

I feel, I feel completely shut down.

And that's, I think that's a part of
it and it, and the part that really

always surprises me is the emotional
reaction to things and how like I think

there are some people in the world
that just send emails with the subject

line of "please read and respond".

That's just what people do.

They've learned that's what
you have to do sometimes.

But I take it so personally.

And I think also it applies to,
everything that I touch, everything I

do, but also dungeon mastering, right?

Like I suddenly become insecure, not
just in that realm that the issue

is happening, but in every realm.

Everything that I do I'm like,
oh, because I, I think over being

overwhelmed for me, for you in some
ways it is the status quo, right?

There's never boredom.

There's always something to be working on.

There's always something
to fill your brains with.

And that's okay, in some ways,
if you are instigating it, if

you're letting your brain do that.

You're also trying to just live a
life and you're feeling that way.

It's a lot coming down on you.

And so then we also have the
additional stress of this trip that

I planned to a funeral service.

And I wanted to go for the right
reasons, just like any funeral, you

can't just be there for the person,
Funerals are about the other person.

They're not about the
person who's lost someone.

That I know from experience.

It's not about the death of my friend's
mother, my friend who I would go for.

It gets everybody else's one chance to
really mourn in a lot of ways, publicly.

So it's, it's not a fun thing to go
to, no matter what the situation.

But.

I was so used to in the pandemic.

I was thinking about this.

I was talking to my friend,
Joe, about this, how.

For so many people, when the pandemic hit,
and the crisis happened and world started

changing and it's fear and everything.

Everybody has stress.

But I had so many positive things.

Because I, because of my disability,
I didn't really have the perspective

that I needed to understand that I was
truly grinding myself into oblivion.

I had no clue.

I just thought that's what I had to do.

I had to juggle three entire businesses.

And the joy and the relief that I
felt when I couldn't, was palpable.

I was in my hammock.

Just breathing and
breathing and breathing.

It was so amazing.

Alison: I ask myself if not
a daily, at least a weekly

basis, if I am a garbage human.

Be cause sometimes I long for
the simplicity of April 2020.

And we can tie that back to both
of our ADHD, because I think,

probably me more so than you.

I am consistently and constantly
hampered by analysis paralysis.

Matt: Yes.

Alison: And in those early days,
there were no choices to be made

because you couldn't make any choices.

You just got up and did
the best that you could.

And we were all being really kind
with ourselves and with each other.

And I remember having conversations with
friends about parts of me didn't want it

to go, air quotes here, back to normal.

Because normal wasn't functional
and functioning for so many of us.

And that was back in like the early
days where we really thought this

was like a six week problem, first
of all, But I really wanted all of

us to burst out on the other side
with this newfound self-respect.

Respect for other people's boundaries and
need for time and all of those things.

And knowing that we were all just
going to go right back in to the

way it was the second we could.

And what's been interesting is
I feel like you and I haven't.

But the rest of the world and
a lot of other people did.

And then, so then that makes us, like
that self-consciousness, that we're

feeling stand out even more because it's
in such stark opposition to the rest of

the world who's like, all right back to
like just filling every moment of every

day with sometimes meaningless activities.

Like some of the stuff I was
doing before, just didn't matter.

Matt: Right.

Alison: Yeah, so that's my daily,
like, Existential crisis of, I don't

want the world to be in a pandemic.

I don't want businesses
to suffer financially.

I don't want people to
suffer in any shape.

But I miss the simplicity of just
sitting in my living room by myself,

with my cats and not having to worry
about saying no or making a decision.

That is when I am at my best, when I
don't have to do either of those things.

Matt: And I think that's, I
think that is something that

is real for people with ADHD.

It's very real.

I know it's real for a lot of
people, but I think that you're

speaking to it better than I was.

In that, there's such an
emotional element to it.

Other people are just like, yeah.

Okay.

So I'm either going to, or I'm not.

Like my brother doesn't seem
to have a similar problem.

He either goes out or he doesn't go out.

He's always been able to
say no better than me.

He's always had less.

And my wife less, less bleeps given.

Just in general, does not
have that, that stress of...

Yeah.

Alison: I have, I have a theory.

And this theory, literally just hit my
head as you talked about, Evan and Lindsay

who are known introverts, they were
introverts before the pandemic, they will

be introverts for the rest of their lives.

What if this has nothing to do with
our ADHD and everything to do with

the fact that you and I are both
recovering, perceived extroverts.

We have always been labeled
extroverts because that's what

people know of us, because that's
the mask that we wear in public.

We're talkative.

We like people.

Like all of these things that don't
necessarily make us extroverts,

but people perceive us to be such.

But that's also why, like the introverts
never had the trouble saying no to the

things that they truly didn't want to do.

Those who are at least
self-aware enough to draw those

boundaries and stick to them.

But you and I, who have ADHD,
but also have shifted in, I don't

necessarily, I'm not trying to
tell anybody that I am an introvert.

I'm not.

I think of anything at this point.

I have an ambivert.

I don't know how you,
you self identify there.

Is that another symptom
or is that something else?

Completely different?

Matt: I think it could be a symptom in.

In our endless desire to find stimulation.

And a lot of times, and we have
learned that stimulation can come from

experiences, human, other human beings.

But I agree with you.

We've, we have definitely
learned a lot about that.

So I, I think, yes, I think you and I have
learned that we are ambiverts for sure.

I think that the big shock for
us was, when that was taken

away, we did not crumble at all.

In fact we thrived, in some

Alison: In fact we thrived.

Yup.

Matt: So what does that mean?

And.

I don't really have the answer.

It's just a fascinating process.

I still don't know what to do.

I think this is a process still.

It's still I'm going through it.

I don't.

I don't have the answers yet.

I mean, I'm operating on a level
where for sure I'm doing things

I think are the right things.

The thing that you and
I have to learn now is.

is that the best use of our time?

Is that the best way to
be supportive as a friend?

Is that helpful at all?

In those situations, I'm still
reacting as if it was 2019.

Alison: I think weddings and funerals are
very similar in that regard where there

is a lot of shoulding around, should I go?

I remember once a, an upcoming wedding
was really stressing me out financially,

emotionally, And one of my friends
who was married, sat me down and was

like, I'm going to tell you something..

The bride, the groom.

We don't really know who's there
or what's going on that day.

It's all such a blur.

We're not going to look back
on that and single you out.

But for the most part, like if
you're going to one of these

events, you're going for yourself.

You're going for your ego.

You perceive that other
person needs you there.

Potentially more than they need you there.

And that's hard.

Matt: It's very hard.

Alison: And even with, even with less
large events, just like day-to-day

stuff, is unlearning the, like,
if I don't go, they don't care.

My friends, they'll say like, oh,
Alison come, we'd love to see you.

And if I'm not there and if
I repeatedly never show up,

there might be a conversation.

But if I miss dinner, like
the world keeps turning.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: It is okay.

So yeah, giving myself that freedom.

And it's funny because I've
been thinking about this a lot.

Within the context of D&D.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: I think about how
much I have prioritized D&D,

especially in the last year.

It was easy to prioritize it in 2020.

we literally had nothing else going

Matt: Right.

Alison: But, now.

I definitely play three days a
week that I are, as far as I'm

concerned, fairly locked in.

I'm about to add another
as a dungeon master myself.

And I've realized more than any
other point in my life before, what

a priority those days have been.

I used to let things get moved around,
I have a standing, Lunch or dinner

or whatever date with this person,
people could shove that around.

And now my friends ask me to do something
on Thursday and it's a hard and fast no,

like I don't even have to think about it.

What if we could just do that
without something on the other

side, just prioritize that day and
time for whatever we need it for.

Wouldn't that be great?

Matt: Don't you feel that, that time, the
reason that it is becoming a hard and fast

no is that time is quality time, for you.

That's the lesson that I'm
just going to have to learn.

I'm going to have to really take a
deep breath and accept and understand.

It's just about quality.

And I think when we hit on this
thing that, like you said, in 2020

was all we could do, like, yay.

Let's just try this out.

but when we realized, wow, this
is truly meaningful and it is

punching all these buttons in, in
our life that we are missing.

How many parties have you gone to?

That you've just have
no emotional connection.

It's all small talk and you know,
it's going to be small talk and you

get there and it is small talk and
then suddenly here's this thing where

people that I've never met in person
are having these emotional experiences.

Alison: Yep.

Uh, just a few days ago, the first
character that I ever built as D&D

player died and at the end of the game.

And so it was the first character
death that I've been through.

And my first character's death.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: And it was really funny because
in the moment I was like, I'm fine.

This is fine.

We had, it was a little mini campaign
that the four of us had done to

say goodbye to these characters.

That was the whole, like motivation was to
close the books on that particular story

that we started telling in March of 2020.

And to give them the, you know, official
goodbye that we felt they deserved.

So there was this part
of me that was braced.

I knew we were going against
a Big Bad, as an adventurer.

Anything could happen.

I had felt that morning when I woke
up that my character was going to die.

I just felt like it was her time.

And it was very funny, cause
like, when it happened, it was

just like, Okay, this is fine.

And in the immediate aftermath,
Fitz started texting me.

Like as soon as we all disconnected.

Are you okay?

Like, what do you need?

know, like very much like, and then I
woke up at three o'clock in the morning

and started crying, like having all of
these very real, very visceral memories of

Lavinia, that's the character, thinking,
about everything I could have done

differently would have done differently,
would not have done differently at all.

I think here's the part that
lets you know, that I'm still

at least a little bit extrovert.

Part of my pain was knowing I
couldn't share this with anybody

else because anybody who doesn't
know would write it off as silly.

If I said to any of my friends who don't
play D&D who roll their eyes when I say

I'm playing D&D my character died and I'm
really, I feel like I've lost a friend.

I feel like somebody close to me has died.

It would, they would make fun of me
and not because they're bad people.

I would've made fun of me before 2020,
2019, would have made fun of that.

But it has sat on me all week long,
like I have gotten sad and teared up

thinking about the fact that my Dungeons
and Dragons character died this weekend.

And it's wild.

I don't believe it.

Matt: If I will challenge I'll
challenge those people who

would ever say anything to you.

With this.

The reason that you are sad.

The reason that you have
the capacity for sadness.

Is because you are a human being
and that you care and that you

have experienced this before.

You have experienced death before.

You have experienced loss.

That loss, that real life experience
has allowed you to play a game

that triggered the same emotions.

And that's just.

That's just beautiful to me.

I don't care what people think.

I think that's beautiful.

I know you can get it while acting.

Uh, I have done that many times.

do playing music.

I get that.

It's all the same.

There is no difference in my mind.

But it's, it's such a safe and wonderful
place because you are surrounded

by friends and it's happening.

And then,

your sadness is, visceral
and real and justified.

And also pretty great because
there isn't a real human being

at the end that has died.

And I don't know.

I don't know.

I just.

I'm with you.

Alison: I well, and my challenge
and maybe that's head trash.

Maybe if I had said to any of my
friends, I'm really sad because my

character Lavinia died this weekend.

maybe they would have, I do have friends
who, while they don't get D&D I have a

friend who checks on me cause I play a
pretty gnarly game on Thursday nights.

She checks on me every Friday morning.

how are you doing?

How was last night?

You know?

And like, That's really sweet
and supportive, and I love that.

And I think that's the type of
friend that you're like, The past

couple of years have taught me a
lot about, quality over quantity.

And I want to be the type of friend
that is just on a rampage of happiness.

No matter what.

Whatever is happening in your life.

I want you to know that I'm the
type of friend that is just going

to cheer the hell out of you and
not look at it in terms of me.

And like, I have a friend who when
somebody wants to celebrate anything

she will counter with "don't they
know how that will make me feel?"

That's not friendship.

Just rampage of happiness.

That's what we need to be on.

Not all the time, but like for your
friends, like just support them.

Unrelentingly, but anyways, I digress.

So I didn't give my friends that
chance to be there for me, but, When

you know, a character dies, somebody
that you've formed an emotional

attachment to, and in this case,
that's exactly what's happened only.

This was a character I made.

This is something I created it.

it's a thin veil.

I will just go ahead and say this, but
it's a thin veil between what, who we

create and who we are, there's some.

Something, there's a part of you
inside every one of your characters

or a part of you that you're
dying to get out and explore,

Matt: I think one thing that's
tough for people to understand

is, or accept is that you can
play this game without emotion You

don't have to get deep with it.

You could go into a dungeon, roll,
some dice, kill some monsters, get

some treasure and have a great time.

I am sure.

That's not what it's about for us.

But you're a hundred percent correct.

A part of you did die last weekend.

Part of you died, which is so intense
when you think about it, it's so intense.

Alison: And then there's the performative
aspect of it, of me going did I do OK?

Did I do it right.

Was I eloquent enough in my postscript.

Did I handle it okay?

but that's why it's fun because
it's just this never ending

choose your own adventure.

You know, but in the game I had
to make a split second decision.

Did I make the right one?

Don't know.

Matt: I think that what we have
to do is we have to come to a

place where we are like, okay,
so These things are meaningful.

And.

You can rate meaningfulness, but I
think that's another stressor in my

life is that I find that I really just
want to get great at playing this game.

I want to be a great dungeon master.

I want to be a child again,
and not know anything about

it and put in my 10,000 hours.

And I haven't felt like that
in a long time about anything.

Not, music, theater, any of these things.

And so going back to the sadness too,
is like, when these other things come

up and I feel like I'm distracted.

And that's, the thing
that is suffering now.

No, I've got to get rid of it.

I've got to get rid of it.

It doesn't feel as important.

Alison: One thing that you.

Have touted as far as ADHD goes
for years is how it's misnamed.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: That it's not really
about having an attention deficit.

But rather what you do with your
attention and where it goes And I'll be

honest, I think until D&D I don't know
if I ever fully understood you there,

cause I have a different kind of ADHD.

And with the compulsion does come that
more like, Ooh, shiny, look over there.

Squirrel.

What's going on.

But with something like Dungeons
and Dragons, I understand.

So perfectly that point you've been trying
to make to me for years when, I have

gotten into this groove where the rest of
the world, just blacks out and fades away.

And I am on this.

Just more than doubled down.

One hundreded down on.

On my attention to this one, thing.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: And that's something new for me.

Matt: It's new and wonderful.

It's funny because I'm seeing this coach.

I have a coach.

And.

When I do something correct.

She cheers.

Yay.

I wonder how many people in
your life that when I say.

Yeah, I need to quit this.

yay.

With ADHD, you're trying to please.

You're trying to make everybody happy.

You want to be happy, but, we
tend to overextend instead.

We'll just give and give and
give and then we'll be exhausted.

part of the stimulus.

no, no, no, no, no.

That's the wrong thing.

I need to take the things
that are crazy making.

And jettison them.

So that I have the brain space for
things that I'm so ready to pick up.

If you gave me two hours now,
instead of working on blank.

To work on D&D.

I would take it just, I
would have no problem finding

somebody to do not one problem.

And those two hours would
go, boom, just like that.

Alison: I when I was talking a minute
ago about the thin veil between

us and the characters we create.

One of my newest character
creations is a Druid named Sora.

And I think I created Sora with the ideals
of what I want to be very subconsciously.

I did not sit down and really
make any decisions about Sora.

I picked out her race or class, her voice,
and like we had to come into this campaign

with what are called prophecy goals.

So what's our motivation kind
of a thing and that's it.

I cooked up nothing else and have
just uncovered her on the journey,

Everything I do, as Sora I realize is
that she's not worried about the past

or the future, because she knows that
it's going to happen when it happens.

And I want to be more like that.

Cause I get fixated on what I should
have said or what I'm going to say

instead of just living in this moment.

Um, but one of the things I've been
thinking about relative to this

is, like knowing when it's time
to say goodbye to things, knowing

when it's okay to let something go,
let something fall off your plate.

Cause I think we tend to grip so
tightly to the shoulds our life.

And so one thing that's
come off my plate very soon.

I've been, a youth group advisor
with my church for 10 years.

Now, 10 years is a really long time.

For anybody, but especially
somebody with ADHD to commit to.

Lovingly willingly, happily, you
know, they've been 10 great years and

I have, I have really been blessed
with a lot of great people in my

life because of the experience,
but, My crew is, they are called.

They are graduating in a month and I
am done and I am walking away from the

program for the foreseeable future.

And I could not be more
excited about that.

And I wonder if If this
is a post 2020 Alison now.

Like, having boundaries.

Embracing them.

And, also respecting the
natural order of things.

Everything has a beginning and
an end, and this is something

that has come to its end.

It's lived its life in my soul.

It served its purpose.

And now I'm going to say, thank
you for the memories and I'm

going to walk away for now.

I can't foresee the future.

I don't know what will happen next, but
I know that it's a very firm boundary of.

I'm going to reclaim my
Sunday nights for me.

And people are what are you
going to do with the time?

And I'm like, I don't know.

And that's the beautiful thing.

I don't have to plan every
second of every day and have an

itinerary running constantly.

I think I learned that from my character
to, let everything have its season.

And this is a really good
season in a lot of ways.

And, we'll see what happens next.

Matt: I love that.

Do you have any regrets in the last.

Alison: In life?

Matt: no.

with like you were saying
earlier that, when.

When Lav died, you, there were like, oh
gosh, should I have done this should I

Does Alison have any similar things about.

I'm fishing for.

I hope not.

You know what I mean?

You know, because I know that when we
first started playing with you had.

A certain set of friends.

And we've been very proud in
some ways that you've you know,

distance yourself, healthily.

Not permanently, maybe not.

for whatever reason that you are.

Taking care of yourself in that way and
finding better friends, deeper friends.

I have too.

I actually have no regrets.

Alison: I don't either.

That's why I was kind of fishing back of
like specific to one thing or in general,

because in both cases, the answer is no.

And again, that's what gets me back
into, I'm a garbage person for wanting

it to go back to the sweet simplicity
of 2020, but like, I don't have any

regrets for the past couple of years.

I love where the path has led.

Because I shut up and stop
trying to dictate the path

and just said, okay, fine.

Like I'm out of the control phase.

And, in a lot of ways, now we can really
get into it as you and I sit on the

precipice of some pretty big birthdays.

You look back and you
think, have I done enough?

did I, have I gotten
where I wanted to be in.

No part of my life looks
like I thought it would be.

If you'd asked me when I was 15 or 20,
what I thought I'd be up to as a 40

year old and in a lot of ways, it would
seem that I should be disappointed.

I did not have kids.

I am not married.

I'm not a millionaire.

I do not.

have a really impressive title
or, but What has happened

is actually batcrap crazy.

if you look at what has happened in my
life, especially in the last five years.

What?!

Like I would love to go, just try
and explain to 19 year old me what's

going on in 39 year old me's life.

I couldn't, she wouldn't believe me.

So no.

Absolutely no regrets.

Could I do things better, always.

That will always be like,
we're always going to be

searching for a better way, but.

that doesn't mean I regret it.

Matt: I do want us to hold on to that.

I want us to hold on to
the, the pandemic level us.

Where that was handed to
us on a silver platter.

And I'll just leave with this too.

It's just circumstantial, right?

Like it's just, it's going to
be a challenge for every person.

Who they were before.

My, my actor friend who I did
not really know two years ago.

He took all the energy that he had that
was on stage because he was a full-time

actor and that's all he ever did.

And he put it into cooking and doing this
stuff, but he did not have a good time.

We became friends and
that was a good time.

But his career was decimated.

He was in dire straights and, he had
the energy to do what he did best.

He is an extrovert.

He is someone who gets energized by that.

And, I'm also grateful to
him for drawing me out.

I was super lucky that he did.

And now the world's opening up
and he's going right back to where

he was, which is also beautiful,
but things have changed, right?

Like I think he also, as an extrovert,

Has learned these lessons.

Like I think he also didn't expect.

to make a friend in us.

Even though his world is going back to
a lot of stuff that he really wants.

And then when he really missed, I
think he's going to carry that as well.

I think we're all going
to carry some stuff.

So I hope that all of
that is going to stick.

I think you and I can help
each other make it stick.

Alison: Make it work.

Matt: Yeah, I

Alison: That's why I never want to
be too cavalier when I talk about my

experiences over the past two years.

There are people who are not
with us anymore because of it.

So I don't ever want to come off, and in a
way that, that disrespects those journeys.

But let's remember.

And let's not take for granted.

Let's remember what it was like to
not get to go perform or, watch a

theatrical performance for many months
and how much that hurt all of us, let's

not forget the thrill of being in a
space together and things like that.

Matt: Let's be like

Sora.

Let's just be

Alison: Sora

Let's be likeSora.

you know, My only regret is that we
didn't start this podcast sooner.

And that I didn't start
playing D&D sooner.

So now we just have to
fill that time back in.

Matt: No worries there.

Thank you for podcasting with me.

What do you have to do tonight?

Alison: I'm going to go hang
out with our friend Wardie!

Matt: Oh, that's right.

That's right.

Alison: How many times do we think
Ward is going to say, "ssshhhhh" to me.

Let the D20 tell.

Natural 20.

Matt: About right.

Alison: I'm not even kidding.

Matt: That's about right.

Alison: I think we have
to add on that note.

Matt: All right.

Well until next time, Alison.

Alison: Until next time, Mattie

Thanks for this

Love you too.