Matt: Killer Diller.

Everybody loves filler.

Hello, Alison.

Alison: Hi, Matthew.

Matt: How are you this week?

Alison: Oh, I'm just ducky.

I've missed you in the
past couple of weeks.

We've

Matt: yeah.

Alison: All over the place.

Matt: Yeah, sick.

And elsewhere.

Alison: Sick.

And then Wisconsin.

Matt: Sick and then Wisconsin.

Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Matt: I have to say, after much
thought, I still cannot recommend COVID.

I just can't do it.

I don't think it's ready for, I
don't think it's ready for adult use.

Alison: This jelly?.

Matt: It's not ready for this jelly.

Alison: Well, I'm glad you're back.

And can continue on mic.

Matt: Me too.

Let me too.

Yeah.

So welcome to ADHd20.

Where are we talk about ADHD?

And D&D, Dungeons and Dragons
two great tastes that we think.

Alison: Tastes great together.

Matt: Um,

Alison: we going to talk about today?

Matt: We have a few things
that we want to talk about.

Alison, I think we should
roll to see who talks next.

Alison: I was going to say the same thing.

Cause we each have these kind of bigger
topics that we brought to the table today.

And why don't we do a
little roll off for it.

Let's do it.

Here we go!

Matt: And a one and a two

oh,

Alison: How'd you do?

Matt: Six.

Alison: I won with an 11.

Matt: Nice.

Nice.

Okay.

Alison: All right.

So I guess we're off to the races
on celebrating a feat of mine.

And that is just a few days ago, I
DM'd a full session for the first time.

So I have done some practice sessions
with Matt and Evan and our friend Fitz..

Had to kind of like worm my way, wiggle
my way into the world of of DM-ing.

But a couple of months ago, some friends
approached me because I've been talking

about Dungeons and Dragons so much.

And we're like, All right.

we're going to, we're
going to listen to you.

we wanna play Dungeons and Dragons.

Will you DM for us?

Matt: Quick side note.

But two things.

Number one, you're you have
a natural knack for it.

And that was apparent even in your
very first moments, putting something

together, you have that, like that ease
of speaking, that, it's good for business.

It's good for podcasting.

It's good for other things.

So, I am not surprised
that Friday went well.

Secondly, darn it.

There it is perfect.

Let's see.

Hold on.

Yeah, I can bring it back.

I can bring it back.

Secondly, what was the
other thing that you said.

Alison: That some friends approached
me because I had been talking about.

Matt: Yes.

Thank you.

Alison: Okay,

Matt: Short term memory.

Alison: Hold on to that, Mattie.

Matt: That's a part of ADHD folks.

That is.

Short-term memory is not known.

Anyway, before I forget again.

What I was going to say is,
last podcast you mentioned that

you have been evangelizing.

This game.

Up and down the world.

So I'm really, really psyched
and delighted to hear that it

was not in vain and that you
pulled some people into a game.

Alison: I pulled some people right on in.

Shout out to my first, official crew
and with the exception of Fitz who

joined that game, all new people
for me to play with, which is a

different experience altogether.

When I've only played with this
little bubble this whole time,

these past two years and change.

So Megan and Amy and
Charity and Brooks and Fitz.

Thank you for being my first babies.

And what an adventure it was.

So, yeah, Megan and Amy are the two
that approached me and said, you've

been talking, we've been listening.

We want to play Dungeons and Dragons.

Will you DM for us?

And I was with them, man, in the that
first part of that sentence until

they got to the, will you be our DM?

Then it was like, I'm not...

qualified.

Ready.

And I got to give it up to the DMS of
the world, especially the ones sitting

on camera right in front of me right now.

Mr.

Matt Bivins.

DM-ing is a lot of fricking
work, a lot, so much.

And, um, yeah,

it was, I was hesitant, A) because
I didn't know what I was doing.

And two, because I know
how much work it is.

The name of the game is "Yes,
and" so I, yes, and-ed that.

I pulled in a Charity as a friend that
had just, replied to a couple of my

Instagram stories along the way that she
was interested in playing D&D someday.

Brooks is a friend that I've known since
third grade and, he is a D&D player.

And so he and I, have volleyed on
social media as well that we, Hey,

we should play together sometime.

So I pulled him in.

and then I knew, so when I was learning
how to become a D&D player, what helped

me was being with really good D&D players.

And so that was Evan and Fitz.

And so I.

pull in Fitz because I was like, I
need, if we have newbies, I need a

player that can show them how it's done.

I think it went extremely well.

I had fun, at least, I guess you'll
have to ask the others, but they were

certainly nice and complimentary.

But yeah, it was very interesting.

You know, even though I was excited about
it and even though we'd had the date

on the calendar for months, naturally
I waited until the very last minute.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Alison: I had selected the
module that we were going to

use, and then I got some lessons.

I got one of my friends from
my Thursday game to like, teach

me how to use Roll20 as a DM.

Also months ago, and then I just
didn't put all the pieces together.

I'm sorry to anybody listening
to this until, the days before

the adventure was to begin.

Which feels pretty on brand.

Matt: It's super on-brand.

It's super incredibly on brand.

And.

Yeah, I, um,

Alison: Say it Matt.

Matt: No, I, it is, Here's the best
thing about working with my coach.

That there is absolute validation
you cannot fight that you can't

fight that with our brains.

You can't, it doesn't matter
how much passion you have.

Which I, I have all the passion for this.

I think the only way that I would
be more prepared for You know, every

week's game, is if I did this full time.

Right.

and even then I might be preparing
for other people's games.

I don't know.

But You know, you get
points for showing up.

You get points for sitting down.

The best thing we can do is
try to minimize the stress.

So my question was, you mentioned
Roll20 and, what you had to use

because you weren't playing live right?

And, yeah.

Any other tools that you found?

Certainly when you're first
beginning, Dungeon Master prep is.

It is very strenuous.

I hope for every player of the game
to Dungeon Master at least one game.

Like seriously to put it together.

Just to understand.

To the point where I have become a
disciple of Mike Shea, The Lazy Dungeon

Master, to try to pare down my prep time
and really try to focus it to its core.

So I was wondering if there were any tools
that particularly helped you with that.

Alison: It's funny because I have The
Lazy Dungeon Master and the workbooks.

All.

Matt: You haven't read it.

Alison: On my Kindle..

I haven't read it yet.

Matt: That's awesome.

Alison: I'm not doing this
on purpose I swear, it was

Matt: That's why this podcast,
that's why this podcast works, man.

That is why it works.

It just, you would really
think it wouldn't work.

Okay.

Alison: And I know.

When I first, it was
like, I'm going to DM.

Matt how do I DM?

What do I do?

I just, I wish that every single
one of you guys who DMs, would

just show me your notes, man.

That's hard for you because you
and I play every game together.

So you'd like, That would be a major
spoiler if I saw your stuff, but

I Just want to see how you do it.

Cause I don't know if I'm doing it right.

So here's what I did.

I, you know, you have the story

And it comes, you know, with its maps
and there's both like the DM's version

and the player's version of the maps.

And so I started by crawling through
all of those and getting to know its

recommended NPCs and all the baddies.

And then I just opened up a
Dropbox paper, blank sheet.

And started writing, you know?

I try to use like a series of if
this is in italics, then I'm supposed

to read it aloud as is, if this is
bolded, then this is, some kind of

information or instruction that I
needed to convey to players when they

reach these certain points in a story.

Matt: Yeah.

Alison: D&D Beyond gives you these
four kind of free modules when you buy

Explorer's Guide to Wildemount and you
could just lift them straight out and

read them as is and take people on this
adventure, but you know, that's boring.

So I had to make it complicated
and add my own NPCs.

So I'd done a little Session Zero with
Megan and Amy and Charity, and, had gotten

to know their characters a little bit.

And Brooks had sent me this long,
beautiful write-up on his character

and had clearly put a lot of thought
into what he was coming in with.

So I had tried to figure out, you know,
how these would all come together.

And then the Fitz was the outlier.

I gave her a little bit more information.

I basically positioned her
as the guide for the party.

So I told her just enough, like
basically when we play, this

name will mean something to you.

I didn't tell her what it was,
but that she, she would say

like, oh yes, I recognize that.

And so it's very funny, cause whenever
I prep, it's very detailed at the

beginning with a lot of things I'm
supposed to just read and then it just

gets less and less detailed as you
go, because you know, that's, when

players are going to come in and don't
spend hours writing these encounters.

Cause they're just going to
go off the rails immediately.

Matt: And that's really the only
thing that I really could tell anyone.

That is a lesson that you can not
learn until you're a Dungeon Master.

You cannot learn.

Just do it.

Number one.

Number two, you cannot guess what
your players are going to do.

You can not guess.

You could prepare for hours.

We played on Monday and I had prepared
for all manner of things to happen.

And the players bypassed
every single thing.

Totally fine.

That's what you're supposed to do.

That's your prerogative, right?

So that's why Mike Shea is so brilliant.

He's certainly not alone.

Everybody says this, that knows
what they're talking about.

You just don't want to prep too much.

At least not for one thing.

Now I'm imagining Matt
Mercer is so organized.

And is paid so well.

That he literally can go and build a
map and write flavor text for every

single thing, just in case they walk in.

And then he's incredible improviser
on top of that, which means.

You've got every base covered, but
if you don't, if you're not Matt

Mercer, which you're not, no one is.

And except for him.

Then yeah, you really just have to
be okay with winging it sometimes.

Alison: The whole reason this adventure
exists is to essentially get the

characters to go on this like swamp crawl.

To find this lost mage.

So we get into like the Lord of
the land's tent and, you know, he

propositions these adventurers.

And they're at first, like, nah.

Matt: And you're like,

Alison: I have nothing.

If you don't do this,
I have nothing for you.

Matt: Did you, have to say that.

Alison: I basically had
to offer them enough gold.

I didn't want to railroad, you
know, But I'm like, but no,

you ha you have to go on this.

You have to go find this mage.

have to.

Matt: I got it.

Alison: And I did have to have the same
conversation with each player that you've

had to have with me several times of:
Listen, I'm not going to try and kill you.

That's not my goal.

I don't.

If you die, I don't have a reason to play.

I want you to live and do bad ass things.

That is my goal as dungeon
master to facilitate encounters.

Not death.

And so I did have to up the
ante on the gold amount offered.

So I think lesson that I've learned
there, just if you're paying attention

and you've never dungeon mastered before.

If you're offering a bounty to players.

Does not matter what the text
says, the bounty is low ball.

Just start low don't come
out of the gate at 200 gold.

Tell them you'll pay them 25 and then
let the madness take place in the

bartering and the exchanging of ideas.

Matt: That that kind of could
be applied to anything in life.

Alison: Anything.

Just come in low.

On their adventure.

So it was a lot of fun.

I definitely in the moment, ADD
or not, got overwhelmed, and

that's a big thing is learning.

Like Matt Mercer and the
cast of Critical Role.

They know their audience is captive.

They know we're going to hang
on what they have to say.

And there they can take all the time
they want and we're still going to watch.

I don't quite have that luxury yet.

So it's like, how do we keep a pace
that's intriguing and interesting,

but also own the moment and take
the time to give the descriptions

and, fill the spaces with ideas and.

I'll get better at that,

Matt: I think.

I think that's one of the hardest
parts for me and I'm still learning.

How, how long have we been playing?

Alison: We have been playing
since March of 2020, and it

is now almost June of 2020.

Matt: so

two years, later, two two
years later, I still, that is

still an enormous challenge.

It is pacing.

and, that balance of being prepared
and letting go and trusting people and

finding the rhythm and not trying to
fill every every moment with stuff and.

Alison: That's one note I made to myself.

I did a little journal write up
afterwards, next time, like when

they come into an area of the swamp,
describe the area baddie steps out.

Don't just say the name
of it, but what is it?

What is terrifying about it?

How big is it?

what does it smell like?

Matt: Along those lines I've been looking
into this website called "dScryb".

D S C R Y B.com.

I don't know whether it's the
thing, but I go back and forth with,

whenever I do have flavor texts to
read whenever I do have, you know,

Alison: Is that an official
term, by the way, flavor

Matt: I think it is.

Yeah, I think it is.

I know that as an actor, I can
read it and not sound super.

I mean, y'all can obviously tell
when I'm reading and when I'm not,

but you can make it come alive.

Right.

And so I was thinking, gosh, these
people at Dscryb what they do is they

just write flavor text for everything.

Alison: I'm on the website right now.

See.

The ADHD in me, you've
given me a new thing?

and now I'm playing on this.

Matt: I haven't bitten the bullet
yet, but I've definitely looked at it.

The writing is great.

And to have this cavalcade
of writers and they.

And they just, describe
things, which is really fun.

So it's like goblin.

And you've just spit out this
fun description of a goblin.

So that's an idea.

And I wonder, what I wonder
is in the context is.

For me because my brain is
already on the next thing.

And it's difficult enough for me to
actually speak the stuff in my brain

when I'm just living my life day to day.

Would it be helpful to have
that kind of centering.

I do have sort of a relaxed
feeling when I get to a flavor

text box, you know, I kind of go.

Okay, this is centering me,
it's describing it for them.

It actually is part of the game.

I wonder if at least at the beginning
of your DM career, your GM career.

I wonder if it, at least at the
beginning, until you get to a

point where it is just eloquent.

Then maybe DScryb is the way to go..

Alison: So I just, I hit up DScryb, I
typed in cave entrance, and then I went

to the free tab and these are great.

You see a small cave entrance.

Its arched appearance seems
too uniform to be natural.

Inside, the cave floor quickly
descends into darkness.

A strong musty smell comes
from within, and the faint echo

of water reaches your ears.

If I could just burp that out
instead of having to think that out.

Oh man.

Now I want to give you one to read.

Pick a baddie.

Matt: Um, Okay, here we go.

Here we go.

Here we go.

The draconic form wriggles.

Heaving its reptilian body from its newly
broken shell with a wet tearing sound.

Sticky fluids ooze from the shell as the
beast takes its first unfettered breaths.

And then moves clumsily
as it learns to walk.

It's gaze roams the surrounding
area and its nostrils flare.

Testing the air for
signs of food or danger.

It raises its head when the scent of
fresh blood and viscera fills the air.

Its jaws already slathered with slime.

And its eyes shining with
a hunger not yet sated.

That's dragon hatching out of its shell.

By DScryb.

Alison: So there it is.

we have helped the masses
listening to this podcast.

DScryb you heard it.

if making descriptions and talking,
improvising, freaks you the hell

out, ADHD driven or otherwise.

Find a tool, man.

That's what this is about.

Just find the tools that you

Matt: a

Alison: to get the job done.

Matt: That was my question
too, was just tools.

And so I shared, I ended up
sharing a tool for you and I, yeah.

Speaking of tools.

May I segue into my portion or are you.

Alison: I was actually about to
ask, I think now it's your turn to

Matt: So here's the
struggle that I've had.

That I have as a human being.

Is that I love tools.

I love creating and I love
tools and I sometimes I get

distracted by one or the other.

You are right, I absolutely did fall
in love instantly with Elyse Myers.

And one of her, one of
her little, shorts was.

It was just like her typing
in something and it said.

Should I learn this new tool?

No.

Am I going to do it anyway?

Yes.

Uh, And that's me, that's
the story of my life.

So I kind of vacillate back and forth
from, okay, how agnostic can I make

this versus how can I use a tool that
really does actually help me right.

And.

I've got this coach that kind of
helps me with this tool obsession.

But technology is never going to stop.

And it's always going to be
enticing, always going to be amazing.

And it's always going to help
just a little bit, right.

Like DScryb, and, the problem with that
is we started playing the game virtually.

There has been no other option.

I have never.

Since I was 10, I've not played live.

We're going to change that in a few weeks.

Which I'm super psyched about,
but I have to change my way of

playing for that weekend, right.

Because I don't actually
don't know how to do it.

And so I kind of go back and forth and
I want to get to the place where the

majority of my prep is in one place.

The majority of my
thinking is in one place.

And then I can just export it to the
tools that I need for the situation.

and I think that the times that it starts
to break down is what I'm trying to find

that balance of tools and focus right.

Um, Because.

People with ADHD do have a focus
difficulty at times, and it's

really just what to focus on.

And so if I spend dear sweet prep
time trying to lock down making combat

easier in Foundry Virtual Tabletop.

Then the game story suffers a bit, right?

Then sometimes I will know
exactly every NPC's middle name.

But then we get in and combat is
super broken, because I'm not prepared

with how to make it happen live.

I've been going down this path,
taking stock on all the things about

Dungeons and Dragons fifth edition, 5E.

That have not felt right
to me after two years.

I know that a lot of this is because
there are hipsters now that play

role-playing games and they call them OSR.

It's an old school revival, Renaissance

And what it is they're going back
to the original tomes the Gary Gygax

TSR era, the red box, the, different
writers, different editions, and

they get super hardcore about it.

But I will say it was a
different game back then.

It was a very different game.

And there's so, so, so many things
about 5E that I really love more.

I love the relative simplicity of it.

I love the focus on backgrounds
and role-playing and

storytelling and the, size of it.

And I love the community of it, which
of course we didn't have back then.

But there's a few things that I
feel like to get to simplicity, they

took some things away that I miss.

There's an edginess, there's a
grittiness, I think that 5E does not have.

And you just touched on one where
your friend Brooks spent days

and days creating a character.

We wouldn't have done that back then.

Because death happened really often.

sometimes you would like
build two characters just in

case one died in a session.

I'm not kidding.

Alison: This is what is
the word I'm looking for?

Antithetical to what we were saying
earlier with I'm a dungeon master.

It's not my goal to kill you.

Yes, it is because dying is is too hard.

Matt: I know.

I know.

I know.

I know.

I know.

I love that.

I love that, but it's not really
specifically death, and I want

to reiterate it wasn't the
dungeon master killing people.

It was just that the game really was
dungeons, and, there weren't even

that many dragons until Dragonlance.

Seriously until Dragonlance there
weren't even that many dragons.

And so it was like dungeon after dungeon.

I mean, that's what you did.

And that was plenty fun.

You know, and I think things
started to open up and change

when Dragonlance came out.

And that's when I really
started loving the game.

So what that says to me
is that 5E is my jam.

The new versions are my jam.

I've said before I tried 4E
and it was very complicated.

My point with all this is just to say
that there's some things that I do miss.

There's an, there is a stakes
that I find missing sometimes,

especially in combat, right?

And you'll find this as a dungeon
master that as your characters get

more powerful you can't challenge them.

It's so difficult to challenge y'all.

I'm not joking and in order to challenge
you, you have to be 10 times more

focused on, on a vampire's legendary
actions, you have to know so much more.

And so what I guess what I'm trying to say
is everybody wants to start at third level

and they want to go until 20th level.

Right.

And the sweet, sweet, sweet
spot is like five to 10, right?

Like you really start rocking, but your
characters are just, they're just like,

the Avengers and they're unstoppable and
there's so many little things and turns go

on for forever because it's this and that.

And also this, and this is my
reaction and this is my bonus.

And it's like 50,000 points of damage.

And you're like, oh, wow.

Strahd just died, that was the whole
point of this game and he's dead.

So, um, I've been thinking of.

How to both simplify, combat.

And make everything feel like good grief.

There is a hoard of skeletons coming.

We are really overwhelmed.

Are we going to live through this?

Now, again, my job is to not let you die.

I get that.

But I still want to make
the players fear death.

So they're really going to pull
out every stop that they can.

And then they're going to give
the Dungeon Master as much as they

can, and they're going to be super
ready to rock in any situation.

Does that make sense?

Alison: It does.

And it doesn't in other ways.

And so I hear you.

And I think that these are frustrations
that may be unique to DM-ing because

I will tell you as a player, I have
never once in two years, sometimes

playing D&D three, four times a week.

I have never once been in a combat
that I thought lasted too long.

I have never once watched
Critical Role and thought this

combat is lasting too long.

It goes back to what I was
saying earlier with those who are

professionals and have the confidence
that those of us that aren't are

still building is take the space.

Own the moment.

When somebody is really
good at public speaking.

They're not worried about
what the audience thinks about

their gaps and their pauses.

They're going to take the time they need
to think through what they want to say.

And maybe the audience.

Just thinks that they're
pausing for effect, right?

They're not worried about you.

And so it's interesting.

to me, cause I know you and I have
talked about this subject at length,

but I don't know that I connected the
dots until today that it was about your

feeling, fear, whatever you want to
call it, that combat takes too long.

I've gotten better at
role-playing and enjoying.

Cause remember when we first started, man,
I was all like fight fight fight fight.

I did not wanna do any role play.

And I think I've got a little bit less
chaotic six year old boy about it.

But I still love it.

It's still my favorite thing.

I.

Maybe I am sometimes disappointed
when I don't get a combat in sessions.

but I'm never disappointed
if the combat takes too long.

I love Critical Role episodes
where the entire episode is combat.

So this almost fixation on
how do we shorten combat I'm

like, what are you doing?

That is, that's why we do that.

Even though all the
other stuff is fun, too.

And I promise I like it.

So just think about

Matt: You could be on to something
about the DM and you could also be

onto something about Virtual play.

Because as a DM, what I see is
everybody checking their email.

When it's not their turn.

Alison: Fair.

Matt: I know you're checking your email.

I know you are or whatever.

I know you're doing something else.

There's no, I've done it.

it's natural.

It's right there.

You're not, not going to do it.

and that does erode confidence.

I mean, people in Critical
Role are doing it.

They're talking, they're checking
their phones or doing this stuff.

To me, that just means
everything's taking too long.

It just feels like it's taking too long.

I, I can either, like maybe you
have to try to turn y'all off to,

not have that thing, because I
just want, I want that engagement.

I know that we have engagement when
we're having a role-playing thing.

And combat just starts to feel like a.

Alison: But maybe our brains like
maybe for a second, because I've been

in the weeds with the role-playing and
the combat, and now it's not my turn.

Maybe I need that second just
to be like, oh wait, what did

that person put on Instagram?

I have tried to be better about
putting my phone away away.

Cause I know that I can be very easily
distracted and that can be not good.

So I'm not trying to make excuses
for that part, but like sometimes.

It is nice to just be like what?

Okay, great.

Now I'm back.

And it doesn't mean that I'm bored, upset,
don't love everything that's going on

or want the person who's having their
moment in the spotlight not to have it.

Like, take your moment.

and I think that's everything
I'm building towards.

But I hear you.

We can do better job of focusing and
those who are really good at combat

are good at like setting others up for
their turns, being aware of who I need

to be giving some kind of buff to.

So yeah, we can get better at that.

Matt: I hear you.

I hear you.

This has been very helpful to me
to discuss these things because

it's an interesting thing and
it actually helps to know that

people are not bored with combat.

I think though, that we can work
together to make it as engaging

as the role-playing stuff.

That's, that is now my challenge.

I'm going to figure it out.

Alison: We learned so much.

We think we know it all about each other.

And then we come together
and it's like, wait, what?

what?

Matt: Um, well, this was a fun podcast.

Alison: I agree.

Okay, thanks for doing it with me.

Matt: Thank you for doing this with me.

This is number five four!

Alison: Six.

Matt: Oh, my God.

This is number 45.

Love it.

Alison: This is the podcast that doesn't

Matt: um, um, yeah, everybody,
if you want, please find

us and start conversations.

Full we'll, find ways that you
can start conversations with,

because we want to know what y'all
think about these things as well.

We'll find some sort of forum
that you can speak to us in.

Alison that'll be Alison's job.

That's Alison we'll tell you, we'll
put it in some kind of show note.

But until next week, Alison, I love you.

Thanks for with me.

Alison: Thanks.

Matt: Okay.

Ch-ch-ch-change!