MB: Yeah.

Okay.

We are good.

We right as rain, now.

We right as rain, now.

AK: Yeah.

Matt B: Is fine.

How are you on a Friday?

Alison K: I'm pretty good.

I'm still riding a high, baskin'
in an afterglow, if you will, of a

really great Castle Birthday Weekend.

Matt B: Castle Birthday Weekend.

Alison K: See, I got, home, and just
decided I'm not gonna overcompensate

this week when it comes to work.

I think that's something
that I'm realizing I do.

Maybe it's ADHD inspired.

Maybe it's not where it's like, you don't
feel like you did enough, so then you

just like race to do a bunch of stuff.

Matt B: Yeah.

Alison K: And I was just
like, I'm not, gonna do that.

I'm just gonna act as if I was at
work on Monday and Tuesday and have

a normal Wednesday through Friday.

Matt B: Wow.

I'm envious.

Cuz I did I did.

Whoops.

I didn't get the memo.

Alison K: I'm sorry.

Matt B: That's okay.

Alison K: I was, I, you know
what, I was piloting it.

I was testing it.

Uh, The concept is still in beta,
Matt and, and, uh, I'll let you know.

For

Matt B: Yeah.

No, I appreciate that.

Oh God.

Um,

MB: Hello everyone.

Welcome to ADHd20, a podcast
where talk about ADHD, and D&D.

Or any other RPG that you're into.

AK: Or anything else.

MB: Really?

Yeah, really.

We are not, we are not that picky.

We are not that picky.

Um, so anyway, Yeah.

AK: We'll be talking
about, uh, PBJ and BBQ.

No, I'm just kidding.

no,

MB: R.E.M., TLC.

AK: R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

MB: Yeah.

we're in a little bit of
a different situation.

I'm in an Airbnb in this amazing place
in Damascus, Virginia, close to my Mama.

It is really wonderful.

It's a very cool place.

We, we climbed a mountain
today and saw wild ponies and

rhododendrons, but the internet is
really bad, so yeah, that's okay.

we'll make do.

And so my mic is a little different.

If anybody is an audiophile,
and like really pissed.

And like, Matt just doesn't have the
vocal clarity that he normally has.

Then I,

AK: first of all, if somebody
hears this and thinks that, then

you, 'cause really great ear, you.

Good job.

and if you also are in audiophile, you
also know that sometimes you're just

slaves to your equipment, technology, and
some things are just out of your hands.

So patience is appreciated while Matt
lives somewhere else for a month.

MB: I've gotta I've gotta live life.

I've gotta be free.

AK: Let him live.

Let him live.

Let him work.

MB: Let me work, Let me live.

Anyway.

You were saying that you came away from
castle birthday and you kind of treated

yourself like a human being and I didn't.

AK: So Matt just had
his milestone birthday.

Mine is on the horizon in two weeks
and one day, but who's counting.

And I've just decided that I don't
want the energy surrounding my 40th

to be full of stress and negativity.

So I'm done.

I've finished with that portion,
for the foreseeable future.

So yeah, I just kind of coasted back in.

If I get down, I just close my eyes and
teleport myself back to last weekend.

Think about all the dumb shit I said.

MB: Yes.

AK: While gathered around a table
three of my favorite humans.

MB: The dumbest stuff ever being said.

And yet every bit of
it, gold, audible gold.

AK: You, dear listener
will never hear more of it.

Because we didn't record a
thing while we were there.

MB: That's not what it, that was
not what it was about, but, I think

that there could be a future Castle
Birthday where we do record things.

Just, I don't know.

I feel I really, this was your
birthday and my birthday and it was

friends and it was, lot of new things.

Apparently we all went into the
weekend wondering whether we would

like Dungeons and Dragons after
eight or, or each other after three

nights, four days kind of thing.

Is that right?

Ish.

AK: I did not wonder the, especially
the, the D&D I, I know that others,

vocalized that, but I was not worried.

MB: Good, good.

I'm not.

Yeah.

Good.

Well,

AK: Not to be a contrarian,
but here we are.

MB: No, it was just so new.

I have not played in a room with
a group of people since I was

little and you had never, right?

Um, and it was just a time of firsts
and we, so we roll up on this place...

AK: Can we like let's rewind
because we've been talking about

MB: Yeah.

AK: Castle Birthday for so long, that
I forget there's people that are like,

you did what, who when when, why?

So last fall, Evan comes to me and
says, Matt's next birthday is a big one.

I think we should do something.

I don't think he used the word
epic, but whatever Biv's version

of the word epic would be.

And not one...

Yeah, super sweet.

and not one to ever be
left out of anything.

I was like, like three and a half weeks
after Matt's milestone comes my own.

Can I get in on that?

You got some of that sweet
sick action for me too.

And he was like, okay, well, done.

Now, if two of us are having big
bads, let's do this up right.

So I think it was actually Lindsay, your
wife, who first had the idea of let's

go somewhere, nerdy, corny, and awesome.

And your first offering was a Hobbit hole.

MB: Mmm-hmm

AK: And from there.

MB: Which does look great by the way.

AK: It does look great.

And it's still like
it's on our mood board.

It's not going anywhere.

It is surprisingly easy to find
themed stays on Airbnb and V R B O

or VRBO or whatever we call it now.

And so we just ended up finding
this castle in Knoxville, Tennessee.

That looked the right kind
of spoopy and eccentric.

Sorry, I know you hate it when
I say spoopy, but whatever.

Um, and it...

thank you.

And so we booked it with the thought
that we would just come together.

Matt, myself, Evan, and Fitz, and just
play Dungeons and Dragons for four

straight days and not do anything else.

That's it.

That's the whole tweet.

MB: Yeah.

Yeah.

in a themed home.

And.

yes, there, like you said, that
many options and this one just kind

of fit the bill for many reasons.

And there isn't a lot of documentation
on this place, by the owners either.

And, it's in Knoxville, Tennessee.

So you, once you arrive, you kind
of, you realize what's happening.

It is a home.

I still don't know what type of
home it is, but it was a home that

they then built on castle elements
like turrets and watch towers and

dungeons and, uh, hidden bedrooms.

Knocked it out of the park.

Through bookcases and all kinds
of just every single inch of the

place was covered in stuff that
I think the owner had begged,

borrowed stolen, bought to decorate
to give this place a castle theme.

And boy, she did a bang up job,
knocked it out and it's in Knoxville.

You, it's in a remote.

I don't even know how remote
it is, but it's, you know, it's

Knoxville, Tennessee, it's just
this little treasure up on a hill.

that, that kind of looks like a castle.

and specifically with a Scottish
theme, which I also, you know,

approved of because I'm a MacNab

AK: MacNab.

MB: And, yeah, it
couldn't have been better.

One thing that was amazing, there
was little to no light in most of the

house, even in bright shining day.

So the bedroom has plenty of light, and
then there was another sort of room, the

room, that they do, special events in.

So you either have to go outside or the
bedroom and hang out if you want light,

but that's great for us because we
are playing a game that was designed

to be played in basements in Dungeons.

And so this large living room with an
enormous stocky wooden table, was perfect.

AK: Can I just say that I so Fitz
and I were the first two to arrive

at the castle, and set some things
up before Matt and Evan arrived.

and the chills I got when I like put the
map on the table that we would later, put

little minis on and move around a board.

I haven't ever gotten to do that.

I do have real dice that I roll when we
play, but it's just, it hits different

when you're all at the same table.

and so as Fitz I kind of like
unrolled that, surprising to no one

burst out into hysterical giggle
fit, because it was just so it was,

MB: Perfect.

perfect.

It was perfect.

And I had prepared a bunch of
stuff, a whole new world that

no one had really, known about.

And, I didn't know how I was going
to present this or what it was gonna

be like to play live and in person.

I mean, luckily I, you know, I
knew you all, so you trusted me.

I trusted you.

It's.

it wasn't like performance
anxiety so much.

It's just, wow, does this work?

I don't know.

And it just did.

from this first

AK: Just

MB: Just sitting down and in, in
a throne, sitting in a throne, and

just kind of looking at everyone
and saying, Welcome to this world.

That's when I got chills is when
I, I could look at all of you

in the eye and just start the
storytelling and whew, dang, man.

Ugh, the best, the best.

AK: It was.

It was an interesting, it was an
interesting proof that we'll go Jurassic

Park for a second life finds a way.

no, it was an interesting that
what's supposed to shake out

what's supposed to happen will.

So we had actually started talking about
building this world that we played in

months ago, and we did some play testing
with some different characters, originally

thinking that we were gonna hit the ground
running, so that way, by the time we made

it to castle birthday weekend, We were
gonna be just already very immersed in

this world, and we were gonna maybe be
coming to a big boss fight or something

with, some kind of stakes, if you will.

and the way it ended up happening,
we scrapped some of our original

ideas for characters and all started
fresh and, and built something.

what had happened when we first tried
to build the characters, a big lesson

for us, and I would love to hear
from any D&D nerds on this concept

is we tried to build characters
before we knew anything about the

world that they would be living in.

And they just fundamentally didn't work.

Didn't fit.

Didn't jive as a party.

So we scrapped our original character
concepts, Matt shared with us just a

few juicy tasty, tiny little morsels.

and then we all went away, built our
characters, had kind of a Session

Zero a couple of weeks ago, just
to, introduce the basics and decide

what we would and wouldn't know.

And I have to say, it could not
have worked out more perfectly.

I love that we started this
adventure at Castle Birthday.

I love that the first minute we got
to play, we were all, sharing the same

space and air and, looking into each
other's eyes and not the screens like

that is so monumental and special to me.

I can't even find the words.

so it all worked out as it was supposed
to, it all worked out as it should.

Um, and I'm so grateful that we got
the chance and now I feel so much

more invested in this character.

And one thing I tried to do differently
with this character build was just.

Let her play out in game.

I think usually I come in with too much of
a backstory and too many decisions made.

and so with this character, I
didn't know her mannerisms.

I didn't know like how she would react
to stress or anger or fear or happiness.

And it was pretty cool.

Just like getting introduced to her in
game, just as I was introduced to the

characters that Evan and Fitz brought.

And of course, all of the NPCs
that Matt started throwing our

way just right outta the gate.

MB: It was such a fun,
balanced crew rolling up.

Like I really, I loved all the
work that everybody had done.

And I was proud of the work that
I had done to give them room

to be in, in this new world.

And yeah, you said it, you said
it, it was really just, a perfect

beginning and, certainly, it will
continue to move and grow, sadly,

not as many times in person, but.

One thing I thought we could talk about
to kind of tie in some ADHD stuff in that,

because some people want to hear that and
not just about our fun castle birthday.

Uh, part of what I was concerned about
was really trying to find the system.

I needed to find the proper way to show
elements of this world, to the characters

and Fitz had brought this cool, dry erase
board tabletop grid that she used to great

success when she was the dungeon master.

But I, of course need
some things to be digital.

That's just who I

AK: Matthew Bivins is
all digital, no analog.

MB: All digital, all the time.

Anyway, so I needed a way to
have my notes and have this thing

and then have some way for you
all to visualize and plan and

strategize and so on and so forth.

And in a perfect world, someday,
someday, I will build a true

tabletop role playing game table.

I want to have a screen in the middle.

That's a true dream.

So that, that will happen someday,
but in the meantime, to focus what

I was doing, but not to lose focus.

We kind of go back and forth using
Foundry Virtual Tabletop, and Encounter+.

These are two very different
virtual tabletop systems.

One is incredibly powerful
and incredibly complicated.

And it's really good for virtual play
because you can give all kinds of,

power to the characters, to your players.

it's just a more robust sharing system.

But I also love this thing called
Encounter+ that has like a quarter of the

fans, a tiny fraction of the, community.

it's much, much simpler.

But it was so perfect for this.

Encounter+ won my heart again in this
situation, especially live because it

shares just what the players need to
see, which is basically, a dry erase

board that you put on your table
and you could draw things, right.

Except all digital all the time.

And I loved it.

I loved it.

in, in the past, we've talked
about how much control you as

players would like to have over
movement and planning and strategy.

And this time we just kind of went
Critical Role with it, where you

said, I want to go there and even
pointed to the monitor that you

could see, and I moved you there.

and it was really dice focused.

It was really simple.

And yeah.

What were you gonna.

AK: And nothing.

No, I was gonna say, and nothing suffered.

I did not feel hampered at any point in
time by saying Hey Matt, how many feet?

Uh, because for those of you who
don't play, but will one day, well,

have in any given turn, you've got
an amount of movement, you have

an action, and so you have to make
sure that if you're gonna fire off

a spell you're within range, do so.

And.

So we just, we used our words and said,
you know, move me here, move me there.

and it worked.

You didn't seem bothered.

I know I wasn't bothered.

MB: More importantly, and I'll, I'll try
to keep this short, impossible, but I

really think I stumbled upon something
that really does apply to ADHD.

And I've talked a few times
about these virtual tabletops

and how I love tinkering so much.

I love playing with things and new
stuff and like tech and especially with

Foundry, which, will always have a place
in my heart and it will always have a

purpose, I think, in what I'm doing.

But you can futz with
that thing for hours.

You can futz with it until
you have no time to build

your ding dang world, right.

And, in Encounter+ you can't do that,
it's, it's a much simpler thing.

And man, I just, I didn't miss a
beat, as far as what I needed to do

as a storyteller or a co storyteller,
I didn't miss a beat in that.

I didn't miss a technology that Foundry
could give me, everybody was rolling

dice for the most part and I had just
enough help with math and stuff, with

encounters and placement and stuff.

Just enough to get the job done.

And the simplified nature of everything,
including y'all just being there, right?

No dropouts, no sound issues.

The simpler game was, as you
can imagine so much easier

AK: Mm-hmm

MB: For me to focus and
talk and tell and do right.

Actually, when we switched to
using Foundry with our friend,

Matt pulled in for a different
game, it all fell apart, right.

I had actually stop and
say, guys, I'm so sorry.

This is just way harder to do this.

Kind of with this mix of live and virtual.

and I'm totally distracted.

And this is a, a critical moment
that I'm totally messing up.

So it's very interesting how, I think
I was able to focus so much better with

y'all in the room with me, I was aware
when you are not focused and I could

like and I could say mm-hmm no, I don't,
I don't wanna talk about that right now.

I'm trying to listen to the Dungeon
Master or whatever it was, or I want

you to listen to the dungeon master.

Dude.

That's just what we do.

That's part of our life.

AK: Guess who toddler of the class was?

MB: Um, and being a dungeon
master is easier for me to focus.

The strange combination of singleness
mixed with, uh, multitasking just triggers

enough so that I feel like I'm more
focused in the game than I am as a player.

Because I think the player,
honestly takes, ah, more focus

like cuz it's single minded, right?

You need to listen to what your,
your game master is saying.

And you need to listen to what
the, other characters are saying.

And that's harder for me.

It truly is actually more
difficult with ADHD with me.

AK: I think the only thing that
I'm disappointed in, we didn't even

have junk food, ate vegetables.

MB: We vegetables like my brother
brought, he brought quote unquote junk

food, but it was beautiful, plantain

AK: It was all avocado
yeah, flax and plantain and

MB: Healthiest damn snacks.

not a Dorito in a country mile,

AK: Lines were drawn though
over the great Oreo debate.

That's where it almost
all fell apart When.

MB: That's true, there were some junk food

AK: We did have, we did have Oreos.

Uh, Fitz and I went to the snack
aisle procured, the double stuff Oreos

to, she had said, you know, I feel
that Double Stuf are the baseline.

that's the basic Oreo,
anything above that is extra.

And we come back to the cart, gotta put
it the cart of Matt looks at us and goes,

oh, so you're double stuffed people.

MB: Mm-hmm

AK: That's it.

that's as close to an encounter as
we came all weekend with one another.

MB: It was just eyebrows raised because.

I know of this.

I, I'm a fan of Good Mythical Morning,
you know, they did a whole thing about

Oreos and where is the baseline?

And for many, people double
stuff is the baseline.

Regular has always been for me.

I, I went along with it.

Number one is your birthday, number two,
I loved the double stuff upon having it.

AK: We didn't come close to finishing the

MB: Not no, exactly.

We, yeah, exactly.

We bought the junk food, proud
of ourselves reminded that Oreos

are actually vegan, so yikes.

That doesn't bode well, but then
couldn't eat like even a full row.

AK: Even when we ordered pizza,
we ordered bougie, fancy pizza.

we have like walnuts and blue cheese

MB: in all this.

AK: A total veggie one.

There

MB: Yeah.

Yeah.

AK: Insist on a salad or my body would
revolt of revolting it was absurd.

And I loved it.

Um,

MB: Talking about big birthdays.

That's I guess happens.

Don't be ashamed.

And so much sparkling water, so much,

AK: We went through so
much, so much fizzy water.

We smashed all expectations
though, out of the park.

It was truly magical.

I can't wait to go back.

I can't wait to do it again.

I think we have to do a
little parade of castle homes.

We don't need to stick to one.

Try the Hobbit hole next.

There's fairy cabin.

What was great about this one
is, is for the ADHD folks in the

house, there were no distractions.

There was nothing else
that we wanted to do.

We didn't friends in Knoxville.

Like at one point we were looking at
cabins in Pigeon Forge, but then I

would've wanted to go looking for Dolly
and, And so there, there would've been

too many, you know, reasons to not play
D&D even for four people who love D&D.

So I, I kind of like that we protected
our mental space going into this

and said, no, we're going somewhere
where there is nothing else to do.

MB: And absolutely no shade
on Knoxville, Tennessee.

I'm sure that it has tons of
stuff to do, but that was just

not going to be happening.

Uh, Yeah, we didn't do anything.

I barely went outside.

AK: Yeah, we would take breaks, much
to my dismay often and Evan and Fitz

would be like, oh, I gotta go get some
vitamin D, I gotta see outside today.

And I'm like little Goblin.

Why.

We're playing Dungeons and Dragons.

Where are you going?

Uh

We never we never I Don't
know how you feel about this.

We never hit a limit for me.

We never came close.

I could have played more and longer.

MB: I could play not no, uh,
definitely did not hit a limit, our

bedtimes got later and later and
later, and the last night we were

in a campaign being run by Fitz.

I could tell, I could tell when she
said guys I'm so sorry to be this

person at one in the morning, but I
think this is a good stopping place.

You could tell it was painful for her,

AK: She and I play Thursday
nights with a group.

And that was something that she
brought up last night as we started

our game, was that the only thing
she hated was she hated that she

was DMing the final sessions.

She had to be the one to say,
let's pack it up friends, and we

don't hold it against you Fitz, we
understand the position you were in.

MB: It had to be done.

I only stopped the campaign
that I was running because

I didn't have anything else.

I was like, literally ran
everything that I could.

and,

AK: I often wonder if the way
we are is people influences

the way that we are as players.

We've talked about that a little bit
before in this where the veil is very

thin between person and character.

And I have to wonder if, as, a por at
least portion, if not all of our party has

some level of, ADHD or other compulsion.

I wonder how that influences
the choices we make in game.

I am proud of us though, in the
new module, the new campaign that

we started, that we fairly swiftly
and adeptly got to the point.

We followed Evan's don't
bore us get to the chorus.

Is that experience or is that
the new characters we rolled up?

I don't think either of us have
an answer, I'm just, pondering at

MB: Yeah.

I don't know.

I don't know that I have an answer.

But who are we?

What have we become?

But I think you're completely correct.

I Think it's really different to
play in a world that does not exist.

Y'all know about Exandria,
y'all know everything about,

the Critical Role-everse.

And I know everything about Barovia
because that's what we're playing.

And, I can shuttle in any number of
these ADHD fueled subplots and side

quests, but in a world where in a world,
in a world where, it is So 100% open.

Kind everything is a side quest
and nothing is a side quest, right?

Because if y'all go down this street,
I have to write that street instantly.

Like it says, if it doesn't
exist, I have to just create it.

But the coolest thing, is that I
did come in with this little skeleton

and I left with all of the stuff that
you guys wrote in those three days.

AK: I know that I'm broken recording here.

It felt so real.

I couldn't get over how real.

Usually there's some grippage time
needed when you start a new campaign,

when you dive into a new world.

and outta the gate there, it just, it
felt like we'd been telling this story

all along, even though we were all very
new to it and who we'd be playing in it.

And that's kudos to you,
my friend, I'm curious.

I think, cuz I think I know I'm
genuinely interested and I think,

I think others must be too.

can you just, uh, shed a little
light on your process of how

you got started world building?

Cuz we talked about a bunch of
different ways over the recent months.

So.

MB: Yeah, I'll start off
by saying I am super noob.

I've never done this before.

And like you said, we did
have a preliminary, test that

wasn't quite as successful.

I did hit a moment where.

It clicked, it was just, and I've heard
about that about authors and I have

experienced that with songwriting.

Where you have to get to a point.

And once you get to that, it's like,
oh, oh, that, and you're just like,

mind palacing all over the place.

And you are seeing all the connections,
but It wasn't there for a long time.

EV and I had sat down and I said,
Ooh, I want a very low magic world.

And we kind of came up with the
idea of maybe this world, where

magic was outlawed for some reason.

And so some of these things were sticking
and I was, I was happy with them.

But then I saw Lindsay and I sat down
and watched the entirety of the TV show

Chernobyl, which is, which is about, of
course, uh, one of the most horrific,

nuclear meltdowns explosions in history.

And for some reason, after Chernobyl and
the concept of an incident, an accident

that happens that changes everyone's lives
in a, two, three mile radius at least.

And not only their lives, if they
survive, but like their lives and

their children's lives and their
children's children's genetics.

Right.

Like, And I just went, Ugh, that's it?

This is Soviet based, and they're
affected by this incident that happened.

And like, it just kind
of all started clicking.

All these like basic ideas that Evan
and I had came together finally,

because there was a real reason.

And, I am a disciple of Mike Shea, I'll
say that a billion times on this podcast.

And, I think in the time that we started
building Tataria, this world, this realm,

I had been reading Mike Shea's stuff
and I'd been watching him on YouTube.

And for those of you don't know,
he is The Lazy DM, a longtime

dungeon master and just theorist
and role playing game enthusiast.

So I really took his, uh,
theories, his, what do you call it?

Methodology to heart.

And I did.

Strong start, secrets and clues, location
and and I was just really stuck to it.

The, the thing is every single person
says don't build the whole thing.

Don't build every city.

Just don't.

Because number one, you can't.

Number two, that kind of
leaves your players out a.

What if they want to do something.

And you did, and you do, right.

Like y'all invented just
as much stuff, as I have.

And yeah, he's just like, just
start and just circle out, circle

out, circle out, circle out.

So that's a long-winded answer.

Just go get all of Mike Shea's
books and not just his, I mean,

I think a lot of world builders,
say the same thing, right?

Just, steal from what you know, and
love because you will make it your own.

Don't worry about stealing.

Don't worry about like I
threw Chernobyl in there.

I threw some Stranger Things in
there, who cares if it's a bunch

of tropes, people love tropes.

Yeah.

And why wouldn't you wanna
play a game where you are up

against a trope that you love?

You know, the superhero does this,
or this person is vanquished, or

this is why wouldn't you want that.

Everybody wants that.

And again, it will be yours.

It'll be your names.

If it's Yoda, it won't be a little
green dude with like big ears.

It'll be the essence, the
concept of Yoda, um, in your

own words in your own, you know,

AK: Take the parts you
like and leave the rest.

Even my very first character that
we've talked about in other episodes

Lavinia the one that died, well,
I based her at a Greek tragedy.

So of course she met a tragic end,
um, saving her friends in a very

heroic moment, as long as you're not
too on the nose and too, too precious

about it, you're willing to let some
things fly and let your imagination

soar, around that central concept.

I, I think that's a great,
great, technique for Dungeon

Masters and players alike.

MB: And I'm so glad that I
got there with this world.

And now I feel like
there's no going back.

And I don't imagine that I'll
have that initial issue, right.

I'm sure there will be some things
that either fly or they don't fly.

I'm sure there's things
about Exandria that, Mr.

Mercer is like, okay, that maybe
that didn't work quite as well as

I wanted it to probably, maybe not,
but I think we're past that hump, the

initial hump and it's just gonna be

AK: Well, and to tie it all to ADHD,

MB: All right.

AK: We've talked about before, how the
hardest thing for us is often to start.

MB: Yeah, yes.

AK: it's again, that fear.

And I know you don't have the same
fear of the blank page that I do,

but just getting the beast off the
ground was daunting and now it is,

and things are clicking into place.

And I think that's a beautiful thing.

MB: Me, too.

AK: Yay.

MB: Yay.

AK: Um, well, I am so excited to be on
this adventure with you both in your

party and as a member of this podcast.

MB: you

AK: So I'm glad we got
to relive the magic today

MB: Me too.

I can't wait for the next
game, but then yes, of course.

I can't wait for the next a trip and I
can't wait for the next podcast, Allison.

Thank you.

AK: I feel the same.

MB: Yeah.

Okay.

until next time I love you.

All right, bye.